The beginning of the end...

am_yisrael_chai · Aug 28, 2019

GetSpurredOn said:
Poch has moved us forward significantly on the footballing side. I look back to the end of the AVB era where we played Liverpool and we’re blown away by their tempo and movement off the ball, something that was night and day from the turgid stuff we were playing.
Fast forward to Poch’s arrival, and the subsequent brand of high energy dynamic football was fantastic. The man himself came across as very humble and enthusiastic about building his own legacy at Spurs. The players all clearly played with a hunger about them, eager to deliver for a manager that bonded them into a team. Great times to be a Spurs fan.
Now here we are, the style and brand of football has reverted to AVB’esque, pedestrian and lacking any kind of invention. The manager appears significantly more sullen and lacking spark, much like our playing performances. His press conferences are spiky, and he seems to be (semi) publicly falling out with players. These are not the traits he initially came to the club and instilled. (Some of) The players who would once have walked over hot coals for him appear eager to run down their contracts.
Something is broken within our club. Yes it’s early days in the season, but this slump in performances is not limited to 2019/2020 seasons games only. The back end of last season was the same, and the CL run merely papered over the cracks. We have slumped to numerous defeats against teams we really should be blowing away if we have any aspirations to compete with City and Liverpool. But we have failed to do so because of repeated loss of concentration defensively, and time and again failing to show enough invention or urgency to break down stubborn defences.

I personally hope Poch can get us back playing with the sheer intensity, spirit, discipline and dynamic cutting edge of previous seasons. Style that was synonymous with his early days at the club, and had us the envy of many. On that form, I would choose no other manager at our club. But to do that, he seriously needs to rediscover his mojo, and fast. His moody demeanour does not fill me with confidence this is happening any time soon. The suggestions of Mourinho fill me with even less enthusiasm, he really is not the answer.

Back on form Poch ideally, Allegri maybe, Mourinho please no.

As must be pretty obvious from my posts I’m a huge Poch fan and don’t want him to leave but would understand if he walked. If that happened then based on playing style I would want a manager nobody in this thread has mentioned - Erik ten Hag. I also think he would better fit the Levy profile than some prima donna like Mourinho or Allegri.

am_yisrael_chai · Aug 28, 2019

Shadydan said:
Who the fek signs six players in one transfer window

We do, we signed The Beatles in 2013 when Elvis left ?

scat1620 · Aug 28, 2019

Vinny_Sammways_left_peg said:
I think this is going to be the crux of any argument moving forward - be it Jose or another manager - fans will always want to win things, now so more than ever because everything else is supposedly in place - so do you sacrifice a manager who develops things the right way, cultivates a squad, develops youth (I know some debate this) and win something 'organically' or do you go for results based football with a mentality that drives a perhaps 'win at all costs' attitude while passing over the organic stuff?

Be interesting to see folks take on this if it is indeed the beginning of the end.

I've mentioned in several threads over the last few years that I wish we as a club would concentrate a bit more on the current season rather than always treating the future as the most important priority. [Obviously, whilst recognising that you have to plan for both the present and the future; I'd just prefer the emphasis to be shifted a bit more towards the present side of the scales.]

I'm driven to this opinion by the emergence of Harry Kane as a world class striker. Genuinely world class strikers are one of the rarest types of players in football, and they are certainly the most expensive to buy. Given our finite resources, I think we've been almost miraculously lucky to have a world class striker come through our own youth ranks for free, and Kane is in a calibre of strikers that we could never have afforded to buy in from outside the club, and one that we are unlikely to be able to truly replace with like-for-like quality once he leaves.

Therefore, I think we have a once-in-a-few-generations gift in our hands with Kane, and I think it would be a tragic waste of a super rare opportunity if we don't make sufficient investment into the team around him such that it goes on to win a trophy or two. We've won the lottery in having him develop at our club, and IMO we should have tipped the balance a little more into investment in the playing staff while he's still with us and still in his prime so that we can capitalise on our good fortune of having a world class striker on our books. Hopefully he'll still be with us and in his prime for years to come, but even as a best case there's a finite length of time where that will be true, and I want to see us get some birds in the hand rather than planning for the two in the bush, because who knows whether we'll still have a prime Harry Kane by the time we've flushed out the avians in the topiary?

I'm conscious that I'm veering slightly off-topic with my points above, but to bring it back into this thread my preference would be to see us as a club prioritise winning things now over planning to be in a better position to win even more things in the future, and I guess the question of whether Poch is the right man to achieve those trophies in the present rather than in the gloriously imagined future is the $64,000 head-scratcher? Honestly, I don't know, but if someone offered me some guaranteed trophies now without Poch rather than the hope of more trophies in the future with him, I'd be taking the first option.

Hopefully MoPo can turn our current form around and win the trophies in the limited window we have to achieve this with our amazingly lucky break of having Kane at the club, but I just want someone to do it, whoever they are.

Ronwol196061 · Aug 28, 2019

am_yisrael_chai said:
We do, we signed The Beatles in 2013 when Elvis left ?

It was John Lennon not Aaron

Gareth88 · Aug 28, 2019

Shadydan said:
Who the fek signs six players in one transfer window

Marco Silva I swear he signed about 10 at Watford in his short time

DCSPUR · Aug 28, 2019

Trix said:
Levy is levy get that, but Poch got all 3 in that he wanted. Yes he had to wait but he got all 3.

yes but as you know, there is a chance of losing Eriksen and a hat full of others looking for a move. GLC clearly not match fit, TN same, RS injured....and yet some fans are blaming Poch.

It's absurd.

Phomesy · Aug 28, 2019

dossett said:
Can’t spell apocalypse? Don’t worry, it’s not the end of the world...

You missed my brilliant pun (n)

NOW IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD YOU @:{@{!"£"

DCSPUR · Aug 28, 2019

Real Madrid, Barca, PSG, Man Utd, Chelsea, Bayern, Juve, Inter etc.

know what they have in common? They'd all take our coach if given the chance.

And yet many Spurs fans want to make a change.

Here's hoping Levy's decision on Poch is in keeping with his recent good work on the infrastructure....patience, perspective and an eye on the prize.

Ronwol196061 · Aug 28, 2019

scat1620 said:
I wish we as a club would concentrate a bit more on the current season rather than always treating the future as the most important priority

Really difficult when we didnt know how the situation with Eriksen would end up. Eriksen and his agent has taken us over the goals with their strategy of leaving for free so Eriksen can cop the Golden egg. Left us high and dry.
We did the best we could I think.
I still think NDombele will be good and help us get out on the front foot.
I can't really understand no bids coming in for many players we could have sold to refresh.
Levy did ok.
But to watch us play against Newcastle the quality was criminal from virtually all the players and Poch. Poch could have layed out an ultimatum to Levy even a year or two ago instead of getting to this point letting out his feelings to the press along with his obvious sulking attitude. To think he despises this in his players and talks up bravery. He should have been braver with Levy.

Matthew · Aug 28, 2019

hellava_tough said:
It's actually 4 ITKs:

ValYid - said Poch has lost the dressing room

Hercs - not quite as serious as that, but things aren't great behind the scenes

Ali Z - again, not a total disaster, but not the most settled dressing room

Trix - he hasn't lost the dressing room, but things are far from harmonious

And yet some people can’t see why there is a little bit of concern.

scat1620 · Aug 28, 2019

Ronwol196061 said:
Really difficult when we didnt know how the situation with Eriksen would end up. Eriksen and his agent has taken us over the goals with their strategy of leaving for free so Eriksen can cop the Golden egg. Left us high and dry.
We did the best we could I think.
I still think NDombele will be good and help us get out on the front foot.
I can't really understand no bids coming in for many players we could have sold to refresh.
Levy did ok.
But to watch us play against Newcastle the quality was criminal from virtually all the players and Poch. Poch could have layed out an ultimatum to Levy even a year or two ago instead of getting to this point letting out his feelings to the press along with his obvious sulking attitude. To think he despises this in his players and talks up bravery. He should have been braver with Levy.

I don't think you're looking far enough back there.

Our start to this season has left me questioning Poch in a way that I have never done before and I certainly think that he bears his share of blame for what we've seen on the pitch in recent months, but honestly I think the thrust of your post massively lets Levy off the hook for the decline in the quality of our football since the end of 2016/17. I think our efforts in player recruitment and retention in that time have been found severely wanting, and I think a good chunk of that poor performance in the footballing personnel arena can be laid at Levy's door.

desert spur · Aug 28, 2019

Matthew said:
And yet some people can’t see why there is a little bit of concern.

concern yes. results show why.

what the ITK is telling us is outcomes though (which we can also see via results). what we dont know is why. speculation is fun to a point. to a point.

I prefer to read this thread title as the end of the beginning. growing pains that lead to future glory. yes please. (yes i know i'm optimistic. fuck it, that's how i roll)

Phomesy · Aug 28, 2019

Matthew said:
And yet some people can’t see why there is a little bit of concern.

Who?

hakano · Aug 28, 2019

scat1620 said:
I don't think you're looking far enough back there.

Our start to this season has left me questioning Poch in a way that I have never done before and I certainly think that he bears his share of blame for what we've seen on the pitch in recent months, but honestly I think the thrust of your post massively lets Levy off the hook for the decline in the quality of our football since the end of 2016/17. I think our efforts in player recruitment and retention in that time have been found severely wanting in the last 3 years, and I think a good chunk of that poor performance in the footballing personnel arena can be laid at Levy's door.

Spot on though not many on here want to believe that at all due to the new shiny building.

doctor stefan Freud · Aug 28, 2019

scat1620 said:
I've mentioned in several threads over the last few years that I wish we as a club would concentrate a bit more on the current season rather than always treating the future as the most important priority. [Obviously, whilst recognising that you have to plan for both the present and the future; I'd just prefer the emphasis to be shifted a bit more towards the present side of the scales.]

I'm driven to this opinion by the emergence of Harry Kane as a world class striker. Genuinely world class strikers are one of the rarest types of players in football, and they are certainly the most expensive to buy. Given our finite resources, I think we've been almost miraculously lucky to have a world class striker come through our own youth ranks for free, and Kane is in a calibre of strikers that we could never have afforded to buy in from outside the club, and one that we are unlikely to be able to truly replace with like-for-like quality once he leaves.

Therefore, I think we have a once-in-a-few-generations gift in our hands with Kane, and I think it would be a tragic waste of a super rare opportunity if we don't make sufficient investment into the team around him such that it goes on to win a trophy or two. We've won the lottery in having him develop at our club, and IMO we should have tipped the balance a little more into investment in the playing staff while he's still with us and still in his prime so that we can capitalise on our good fortune of having a world class striker on our books. Hopefully he'll still be with us and in his prime for years to come, but even as a best case there's a finite length of time where that will be true, and I want to see us get some birds in the hand rather than planning for the two in the bush, because who knows whether we'll still have a prime Harry Kane by the time we've flushed out the avians in the topiary?

I'm conscious that I'm veering slightly off-topic with my points above, but to bring it back into this thread my preference would be to see us as a club prioritise winning things now over planning to be in a better position to win even more things in the future, and I guess the question of whether Poch is the right man to achieve those trophies in the present rather than in the gloriously imagined future is the $64,000 head-scratcher? Honestly, I don't know, but if someone offered me some guaranteed trophies now without Poch rather than the hope of more trophies in the future with him, I'd be taking the first option.

Hopefully MoPo can turn our current form around and win the trophies in the limited window we have to achieve this with our amazingly lucky break of having Kane at the club, but I just want someone to do it, whoever they are.

Brilliant post for the ambivalent, ambiguous feelings it invokes in me. I constantly balance the frustration of wanting to win something immediate with the recognition of building for the future but your point about Kane is painfully on the money

Ronwol196061 · Aug 28, 2019

scat1620 said:
I don't think you're looking far enough back there.

Our start to this season has left me questioning Poch in a way that I have never done before and I certainly think that he bears his share of blame for what we've seen on the pitch in recent months, but honestly I think the thrust of your post massively lets Levy off the hook for the decline in the quality of our football since the end of 2016/17. I think our efforts in player recruitment and retention in that time have been found severely wanting, and I think a good chunk of that poor performance in the footballing personnel arena can be laid at Levy's door.

I don't doubt that Levy is part of the problem and I do think Poch has created since he came a, system, a strength in Tottenham that we havent seen in eons.
Levy is foremost a business man. He has limitations. He isn't an entrepreneur (You either, are or you're not and he isn't) so his business acumen is, quite defensive.
Poch was a defender and thinks like a defender. He got us playing from the back.
Between them they failed to bring in creative players.
Poch has a strategy and should know what he wants. Apparently Levy got all his targets this, season.
But we did lack creativity.
As far, as, Eriksen goes. We have no idea who said what to whom but the only person for me who could have used his leverage is Poch.
Poch makes demands and makes it clear what is needs to be successful or not otherwise he is off. That's leverage.
Not telling the world he us leaving if we win the CL and then he signs a 5 year deal. Then he whines 2 or 3 games in.
Levy built the stadium bought more players than he has done.
Poch never won anything and allows us to play like that at home against the worst club.

scat1620 · Aug 28, 2019

doctor stefan Freud said:
Brilliant post for the ambivalent, ambiguous feelings it invokes in me. I constantly balance the frustration of wanting to win something immediate with the recognition of building for the future but your point about Kane is painfully on the money

Cheers chap. I worry that if we don't try and get a team on the pitch around him with the quality to win trophies we'll be regretting passing up the opportunity for years to come.

jolegend · Aug 28, 2019

DCSPUR said:
Real Madrid, Barca, PSG, Man Utd, Chelsea, Bayern, Juve, Inter etc.

know what they have in common? They'd all take our coach if given the chance.

And yet many Spurs fans want to make a change.

Here's hoping Levy's decision on Poch is in keeping with his recent good work on the infrastructure....patience, perspective and an eye on the prize.

My concern is whether Poch’s eyes are still on the prize.

I agree he could probably get a job at those clubs you mention. But I am concerned that he has hit a wall with us and he has had enough.

Ronwol196061 · Aug 28, 2019

scat1620 said:
Cheers chap. I worry that if we don't try and get a team on the pitch around him with the quality to win trophies we'll be regretting passing up the opportunity for years to come.

And I think that the players, we have should be playing better than they have.
To a man we have been mediocre at best.
Pochs mood hasnt helped infact may have created it

rossdapep · Aug 28, 2019

scat1620 said:
I've mentioned in several threads over the last few years that I wish we as a club would concentrate a bit more on the current season rather than always treating the future as the most important priority. [Obviously, whilst recognising that you have to plan for both the present and the future; I'd just prefer the emphasis to be shifted a bit more towards the present side of the scales.]

I'm driven to this opinion by the emergence of Harry Kane as a world class striker. Genuinely world class strikers are one of the rarest types of players in football, and they are certainly the most expensive to buy. Given our finite resources, I think we've been almost miraculously lucky to have a world class striker come through our own youth ranks for free, and Kane is in a calibre of strikers that we could never have afforded to buy in from outside the club, and one that we are unlikely to be able to truly replace with like-for-like quality once he leaves.

Therefore, I think we have a once-in-a-few-generations gift in our hands with Kane, and I think it would be a tragic waste of a super rare opportunity if we don't make sufficient investment into the team around him such that it goes on to win a trophy or two. We've won the lottery in having him develop at our club, and IMO we should have tipped the balance a little more into investment in the playing staff while he's still with us and still in his prime so that we can capitalise on our good fortune of having a world class striker on our books. Hopefully he'll still be with us and in his prime for years to come, but even as a best case there's a finite length of time where that will be true, and I want to see us get some birds in the hand rather than planning for the two in the bush, because who knows whether we'll still have a prime Harry Kane by the time we've flushed out the avians in the topiary?

I'm conscious that I'm veering slightly off-topic with my points above, but to bring it back into this thread my preference would be to see us as a club prioritise winning things now over planning to be in a better position to win even more things in the future, and I guess the question of whether Poch is the right man to achieve those trophies in the present rather than in the gloriously imagined future is the $64,000 head-scratcher? Honestly, I don't know, but if someone offered me some guaranteed trophies now without Poch rather than the hope of more trophies in the future with him, I'd be taking the first option.

Hopefully MoPo can turn our current form around and win the trophies in the limited window we have to achieve this with our amazingly lucky break of having Kane at the club, but I just want someone to do it, whoever they are.

Exceptional post!

That's the fear isn't it?! And it's one I share.

I'm fully on-board the Poch way but if that starts to veer off course we may lose more than just Poch. Kane of course and that would be a disaster!

Poch deserves the opportunity to get things back on track. He would then deserve the opportunity to have another stab at winning something but if we don't win anything soon Kane will be 30 before we know it and we will have so many regrets.

That'll be the question, how far are we willing to veer off course before it's too far gone to make an important. Yes, that may be a little dramatic but things can unfold very quickly in football and we need CL football, so if we suddenly find ourselves 10-15 points off CL places the damage could be done and the likes of Kane may already be thinking of pastures new.

Hopefully Poch can stir up the fight in the team and get his tactics etc back on track and we can at least end the season with a domestic trophy. That could then be the springboard. That will also ensure the likes of Kane stay

Forums

What's new

Matches

Sportsbook

Members

The beginning of the end...

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

L'espion mal fait

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

L'espion mal fait

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

the tired tread of sad biology

Well-Known Member

L'espion mal fait

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads