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The beginning of the end...

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ohtottenham!

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Aug 15, 2013
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It's not after 3 games, it's been going on for a year. Bloody hell, it's like people can't even understand the point some of us are making. This has been going on for ages. Did you not notice the poor performances last season and all the defeats?

Do you think our side and squad should be in the relegation zone over the past 15 games? Does that sequence of results indicate to you we are going to be challenging for the CL this season and that we are going in the right direction? We are even below United, and Arsenal and Chelsea are way ahead. You can bury your head in the sand and say it means nothing because the season started 3 games ago, but it's rubbish. Football doesn't work like that, we are seeing a declining trend in the team, apparent for months.
Do you even acknowledge the desperate injury situation we had, no squad reinforcements with the blank transfer windows, players running on fumes? All of those are interrelated and negatively impacted our performances. The whole drawn-out stadium fiasco and Wembley home games didn't help much either.
Talk about "bury your head in the sand"!
 

JayB

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2011
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You're acting like Poch has taken over a team battling relegation? we have a really strong squad, you seem to think it's acceptable that we've been so poor because of various reasons, but I completely disagree. We continually lost games last season against vastly inferior opposition, we are hardly a cobbled together shadow of a squad that Poch is turd polishing.
I completely disagree with the notion that we had a "really strong squad" last season. The central midfield was disgracefully neglected in the transfer market which culminated in two of our most influential attackers, Dele and Eriksen, being dropped back out of the final third to do yeoman's work they weren't suited to. There's very good reason we smashed our record transfer twice on central midfielders, one of whom also gives us added squad depth in attacking positions.

Poch has been given what he asked for but he hasn't had the opportunity to actually work with the full set of tools he's been given yet. It's amazing to me that we're three weeks into the season, still a week away from the European transfer window closing and having even the possibility of a settled squad, and yet we're all melting down as though it's the festive period and we're miles off the pace of top four.
 

rossdapep

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Aug 25, 2011
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Im gunna pull him up on the "most unsettled squad" comment too.

Surely the most unsettled squad we ever had was that one he inherited? Took him a year to really get it to his liking but the big difference is that he faced it with positivity. He appears to be looking at this challenge with uncertainty and negativity and it's reflecting on the pitch.
 

SpursSince1980

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Jan 23, 2011
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This isn't rocket science for Poch. But he sure seems to be making it seem that way.

I'm actually quite surprised he hasn't looked back at his first two seasons and analyzed what he did to turn our fortunes around. From what I can remember, he gave the old guard a go, but then quickly turned to the eager vitality of youth - (Kane, Mason, Benetaleb, etc). That seemed to inject some energy, urgency and passion into our play.

I'd guess that he's a bit reluctant to try that again, as we have so much more to play for now. Back when he arrived, the world was his oyster, as expectations weren't about finishing in the top 4, or challenging for the title, or getting to the final stages of the champions league. Higher the expectations, the more risk averse you can become.

That said, he should give it come consideration -- not saying throw 'em all out. But perhaps, a slight infusion of youth in the first XI, might spark something for the team, and for Poch.

Oh, I dunno. So hard to suggest what he should consider from here on out.

Gotta say... it must really suck being a manager at times like this. My heart goes out to the guy.
 

stevenurse

Palacios' neck fat
May 14, 2007
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2nd half against Ajax was as good football as we've played since I've been watching - sans Bale/Modric in their prime.

As amazing as that result was. Don't let it cloud your judgement that it was great football. Lucas' first goal was great, 2nd was brilliant individual skill and the 3rd was a hopeful punt that came good. Don't forget they probably should have had 3 more themselves. It was a weird night where everything came together. Somehow.
 

THFC_SWE

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Aug 31, 2012
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So, the club has been mediocre in the past. But that's the past. It has nothing to do where the club is right now. Expectations should change with time, and if some of you don't think we should expect more than 4 wins in the last 21 league games from a Champions League finalist, then we are a lost cause.
 
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rossdapep

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Aug 25, 2011
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Didnt walker have the hump because he was getting rotated a lot and missing some big games? Could be bullshit and Ive just made that up.
That was one of the reasons.

It was never really clear whether he challenged Poch and got sidelined or he had been talking to City behind our back and Poch sidelined him. But I do know that Walker was gutted about leaving cause he made a big post about it and his son being upset about it. Who knows.
 

Phomesy

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Aug 20, 2013
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If you saw 'domination' against Villa and Newcastle then that's an issue. Heaton made what 1 decent save against us, and Ndombele scored from the resulting rebound. Domination for me would be a team hanging on and their keeper having a worldy. Newcastle were more than happy to take a point, so having 80% of the ball means fuck all. They didn't want it. It became attack v defence after they scored, and their defence dominated our attack. Possession % and number of passes are by no metric a barometer of domination. They could have easily scored one or two more than us based on the chances they had. Considering they got into our half about 6 times all game that's very concerning
Massive disagree on this point from me. IMO, dominating a football match requires inspiration and chance creation in addition to having the majority of the possession. Having all of the ball but still looking less likely to score than the other team is not domination in a football game as I see it.

See my other posts clarifying what I meant by the Newcastle game. I don’t disagree with you. I’m just pointing out the players played Pich’s game plan.

We dominated Villa. Every single metric that exists for measuring performance shows that - except in finishing. Sorry but that’s just fact. It’s not comparable and should t be part of this conversation
 

JayB

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2011
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Im gunna pull him up on the "most unsettled squad" comment too.

Surely the most unsettled squad we ever had was that one he inherited? Took him a year to really get it to his liking but the big difference is that he faced it with positivity. He appears to be looking at this challenge with uncertainty and negativity and it's reflecting on the pitch.
By the time the window closes we will have played four matches, including 40% of our away matches to top six clubs for the whole season, with players such as Eriksen, Rose, Aurier, and evidently Vertonghen all unsettled. Surely you can see why Poch would be frustrated with that.
 

pablo73

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Dec 6, 2006
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There is no question that we have gradually regressed over the past three seasons, that's a statistical fact based on league games anyway. I'm not just talking about points on the board but number of shots taken, number conceded etc. Three years ago we were number one on those kind of stats, now I'm not sure if we're top 6.

The question is who is responsible for that regression and is it reversible? There's no doubt that not freshening up the squad over the past couple of years has played a major part in this. Our best players have got older (or left) and we haven't adequately replaced them. Obviously I'm not including this summer's signings in that, far too early to judge but they all have massive potential.

However, Poch has overseen this decline so ultimately he has to take responsibility. Levy may well have hampered him in terms of signings (certainly wouldn't be the first time) but ultimately the buck stops with him. Whether it is reversible or not depends on Poch but his demeanour over the past 6 months or so does not inspire me with confidence.
 

Phomesy

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Aug 20, 2013
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As amazing as that result was. Don't let it cloud your judgement that it was great football. Lucas' first goal was great, 2nd was brilliant individual skill and the 3rd was a hopeful punt that came good. Don't forget they probably should have had 3 more themselves. It was a weird night where everything came together. Somehow.
It was great football by both sides worthy of a CL semi final.

Aren’t we allowed to celebrate this anymore? Ffs
 

Wadec

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May 14, 2014
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People saying that we should not worry about last years form as we got to the CL final, may as well say dont worry about key players wanting to leave as we nearly signed Dybala.

Its the whole picture we need to look at. Does Poch have the enthusiasm to start a new 5 year project and rebuild again?

I hope so but have serious doubts on how this changes, I cant remember many managers turning things around when the players stop responding and playing like they used to.
 

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2006
6,409
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It's not after 3 games, it's been going on for a year. Bloody hell, it's like people can't even understand the point some of us are making. This has been going on for ages. Did you not notice the poor performances last season and all the defeats?

Do you think our side and squad should be in the relegation zone over the past 15 games? Does that sequence of results indicate to you we are going to be challenging for the CL this season and that we are going in the right direction? We are even below United, and Arsenal and Chelsea are way ahead. You can bury your head in the sand and say it means nothing because the season started 3 games ago, but it's rubbish. Football doesn't work like that, we are seeing a declining trend in the team, apparent for months.
I’d bet on Poch for us to finish above United, Arsenal and Chelsea in May.

If you, and others, can’t understand the context for our fall off in league form at the end of last season then I’m not going to bother repeating myself. Best we agree to disagree.
 

ohtottenham!

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2013
7,499
13,035
So, the club has been mediocre in the past. But that's the past. It has nothing to do where the club is right now. Expectations should change with tim, and if some of you don't think we should expect more than 4 wins in the last 21 league games from a Champions League finalist, then we are a lost cause.
We talking Sherwood? Then we need to lower those expectations.
 

Oh Teddy Teddy

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Aug 10, 2017
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That was one of the reasons.

It was never really clear whether he challenged Poch and got sidelined or he had been talking to City behind our back and Poch sidelined him. But I do know that Walker was gutted about leaving cause he made a big post about it and his son being upset about it. Who knows.

In his book, I’m sure Poch said Walker came to him as we were chasing Chelsea for the title and asked to leave.
 

THFC_SWE

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
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Dominating a game is more than possession and shots. A team can deserve 3 points more than the opponent even if they only have 25 % of the ball and only shoots 5 shots vs 17 for the opponent. It's about creating good chances (expected goals). Before Eriksen was subsituted on, we had nothing vs Villa.
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
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I honestly believe the press has dropped mainly because we are now playing CL football which means less rotation, plus 10-14 teams parking the bus

I know this is mad, because Poch is showing faith with Toby, but if the club and Poch offered Toby a new contract, I feel Jan would follow suit. we have 3 players going into the last season of their contracts, at the moment Poch is using 1 regular, part using 1 of our most influential players, and either dropping or benching our best defender who in my view should also be our captain.

thing is also yesterday I did wonder if the heat played a big part of not going hard, with also a few players still not ready to play full at the moment with the worry of picking up any un-needed injuries, because until Dier, Alli, Ndombele, and know who will be with us next Tuesday we have a pretty thin squad at the moment

we need to find a way to break teams down that park the bus.
Then that's ridiculous. Neither City or Liverpool drop the press.

In fact, Liverpool counter press, which allows them to press intensely for 10-15 mins and then drop deep to reserve energy.

The fact that our press just disappeared is just mind boggling.
 

Ben1

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Jun 22, 2015
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People saying that we should not worry about last years form as we got to the CL final, may as well say dont worry about key players wanting to leave as we nearly signed Dybala.

Its the whole picture we need to look at. Does Poch have the enthusiasm to start a new 5 year project and rebuild again?

I hope so but have serious doubts on how this changes, I cant remember many managers turning things around when the players stop responding and playing like they used to.
This sums it up really. Managers who say the stuff Poch has, generally don't have a long shelf life at any club. I genuinely can't remember any manager that aired internal affairs and questioned commitment of the squad, that then remained long term. Mourinho is the perfect example...a ticking time bomb the minute he starts getting moody.
 
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