Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

BringBack_leGin · Feb 6, 2020

I’m of the opinion that we’ve outgrown him but I don’t think current formations/ tactics are helping him. Dier was at us best when he was a DM, either 2 man or 3 man midfield, dropping between two centre backs when we attacked so that both fullbacks could bomb up the pitch. We are now playing a formation that, whether 352 or 4231/433, involves two centre backs and a full back who basically tucks in as a wide centre back, making Dier’s biggest strength obsolete and accentuating his flaws as our midfield need to be proactive and quick thinking the moment we have the ball.

His best position in this formation would be as the defensive RB to Aurier’s attacking RB, but would rely on Sessegnon being trusted to play as an attacking winger. Won’t happen, especially now that Davies is fit enough to be the defensive left back option again, meaning Tanganga might well be the defensive RB option going forward.

Time for Heroes · Feb 6, 2020

BringBack_leGin said:
I’m of the opinion that we’ve outgrown him but I don’t think current formations/ tactics are helping him. Dier was at us best when he was a DM, either 2 man or 3 man midfield, dropping between two centre backs when we attacked so that both fullbacks could bomb up the pitch. We are now playing a formation that, whether 352 or 4231/433, involves two centre backs and a full back who basically tucks in as a wide centre back, making Dier’s biggest strength obsolete and accentuating his flaws as our midfield need to be proactive and quick thinking the moment we have the ball.

His best position in this formation would be as the defensive RB to Aurier’s attacking RB, but would rely on Sessegnon being trusted to play as an attacking winger. Won’t happen, especially now that Davies is fit enough to be the defensive left back option again, meaning Tanganga might well be the defensive RB option going forward.

Wrong thread?

nailsy · Feb 6, 2020

BringBack_leGin said:
I’m of the opinion that we’ve outgrown him but I don’t think current formations/ tactics are helping him. Dier was at us best when he was a DM, either 2 man or 3 man midfield, dropping between two centre backs when we attacked so that both fullbacks could bomb up the pitch. We are now playing a formation that, whether 352 or 4231/433, involves two centre backs and a full back who basically tucks in as a wide centre back, making Dier’s biggest strength obsolete and accentuating his flaws as our midfield need to be proactive and quick thinking the moment we have the ball.

His best position in this formation would be as the defensive RB to Aurier’s attacking RB, but would rely on Sessegnon being trusted to play as an attacking winger. Won’t happen, especially now that Davies is fit enough to be the defensive left back option again, meaning Tanganga might well be the defensive RB option going forward.

Wrong thread BBLG.

wrd · Feb 6, 2020

I read his post first and was wildly confused that we had outgrown Ndombele.

BringBack_leGin · Feb 6, 2020

Time for Heroes said:
Wrong thread?

nailsy said:
Wrong thread BBLG.

It’s easy to get confused by which witch hun..... player thread one is in at any given time.

EastLondonYid · Feb 6, 2020

Colonel Dax said:
Probably a mental issue. He had an injury, lost some fitness and form and combined with moving to a new country and adjusting to a more physical and intensive league is struggling to cope. He seems like a quiet / introverted guy so that doesn't help. Hopefully in time he'll sort things out.

Yes , mental that we spent 60m on a player who can't hardly play.

He has all the potential in the world to be a top player, and may yet come good, but that's no good to us atm as he never plays a full game,infact he hardly plays at all.

We aren't exactly flushed with cash to pay 60m on players like that......surely we did our homework before paying 60m.
He looks shattered in the warm up!

HodisGawd · Feb 6, 2020

mpickard2087 said:
I'm not interested in what he has done previously, I am only focused on what has happened at Spurs. We now have over 6 months worth of evidence.

Tell me what I have said that is untrue?

He rocks up to pre-season, uninjured. During these pre-season games he is demonstrably absolutely knackered after 15 mins. At least one of the games (the back to back schedule in the Audi Cup I believe), he is the only one in the squad who gets 'rested' after such a short turnaround, Poch says he is doing 'special training'.

He then features sporadically throughout the autumn, between injuries, doing largely the same. Pick any game you want it is the same pattern. Has an ok start with the ball, shows some at times serious quality, as the first half goes on the familiar sight kicks in though - bent at the double trying to catch his breath, no longer doing defensive work, stops looking for and getting the ball, and out of the game. Clearly knackered. All (way) before half time.

The only game that is different is the Norwich game, where with the ball he got better as the game went on, though defensively and running back it was still exactly the same where he couldnt do the work. Still, progress I'll readily concede. However very much the anomaly.

He's then back last night, after 'special training' under yet another manager, who says his fitness is a problem, and it's like no progress at all from pre-season. An ok start to the game, after 20 minutes he's done for.

People can try and obfuscate and explain away and take it off on a different tangent or say the man on the street isn't able to cast judgement on him, if they want. But this isn't simply a case of someone not quite up to speed with the PL or not quite doing a 90 minutes. Not quite doing 45 mins would be progress at the moment! And that 'the whole squad is knackered' argument is pure baloney. These guys might not be firing on all cylinders and look a weary group in need of revolution, but none of them are a spent force after 20 mins, every single one of them is fitness wise levels above him on what we see, week in week out.

I feel it needs saying again, I (and I think everyone) fully agree their is a guy with serious ability there who potentially is a super footballer. But I'm not going to be wishy washy and ignore what is going on. As I have asked repeatedly now, and no one has ever had an answer for me which says it all, name me another player at Spurs (or any pro footballer) who you have ever seen bent over after 20 mins gasping for air, and then every couple of mins afterwards, can no longer run and is done for? Game after game. I don't think you can. If that doesn't concern you, then fucking hell. Fuck off it's not worth talking about, 6 months down the line at that, and fans left scratching their head about it. Something is wrong, whether it's within his control or not. I just hope the club is getting to the bottom of it because we all want to see him showcase the full extent of his abilities ASAP and get the player we thought we were getting.

This is a very good post. I wholeheartedly agree.

I generally have very little sympathy with footballers. We don't know what the problem is, whether it is mental or physical. But surely, surely the club must find a way to get to the bottom of it. TN is a £60m investment and £200k a week cost. Clearly it is within his ability to deliver on that, no one doubts that, but the club has to see some return.

I maintain that when you spend £60m and £200k p/w you are shopping in the deluxe range where you can expect a player to hit the ground running. If we'd signed Piatek or Jose in the window I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd taken time to adapt which is probably why we didn't sign either. But at £60m the risk should be lower.

He is clearly potential world class. I just hope he shows it soon.

Ronwol196061 · Feb 6, 2020

I'm thinking he is a creative genius that is just doing his own thing. If that's true I'm not sure it will end well. It's a shame.

coyspurs18 · Feb 6, 2020

Mesmerising, maddening Ndombele remains as much of a conundrum inside Tottenham as he is to those outside

The 23-year-old midfielder's fitness issues can make him seem like a luxury player - but he also brings Spurs to life...

theathletic.com

In the early stages of Tottenham’s 3-2 win over Southampton on Wednesday, Tanguy Ndombele did the sort of thing that has you involuntarily laughing to yourself. In fact, he did it twice within a few seconds. First he tempted Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg towards the ball only to nick it away at the last millisecond. Then, with Hojbjerg out of the picture, Ndombele made Oriel Romeu look similarly stupid with an equally audacious drag-back.

As can be the case with Ndombele though, it came at a cost. Romeu committed a tactical foul and, in falling to the ground, Ndombele hurt his back. He did his best to run it off but seemed to be moving at half-pace at points until the break.

So it has been for Ndombele since joining Spurs: the verve mixed in with the vulnerability. He is a player who is utterly compelling to watch — seemingly possessing the ability to bend time to his will when he is on the ball — but who physically still seems some way short of being a regular option for Jose Mourinho. A riddle wrapped up in a mystery inside a Cruyff turn.

In last night’s FA Cup fourth round replay win for instance, he created the opening goal by booting a loose ball into the back of the net via Southampton’s Jack Stephens, but had to be substituted after 61 minutes with his reserves well and truly depleted.

And this is the crux of the Ndombele debate at present: is he a lavishly talented player who requires patience as he navigates his debut season in English football, or does he need a kick up the backside to get himself into shape? The Athletic understands that it is as much of a conundrum within the club as it is for their fans on social media.

To recap, this was only the 23-year-old’s second appearance, and first start, since he limped off after 25 minutes of the 1-0 loss away to the same opposition on New Year’s Day with a hip problem. After the match, Mourinho described Ndombele as being “always injured”. Six days earlier, Mourinho had said of Tottenham’s £55-million record signing missing the 2-1 Boxing Day win over Brighton: “He was not injured but not feeling in a condition to play.”

In between all that, Ndombele produced a man-of-the-match performance — including a stoppage-time rabona cross — in a 2-2 draw at Norwich City.

Publicly calling Ndombele out did not go down well with some members of the squad, The Athletic understands. Those uncomfortable about it felt Mourinho would have been better off dealing with the issue privately and that it should have been more of a discussion between the head coach and Tottenham’s medical staff.

Others at the club, however, were supportive of Mourinho’s position and felt concern at Ndombele’s lack of conditioning and general fitness levels.

After all, this was not the first time Ndombele has had these sort of issues. When he was with Amiens in 2016, he had to be sat down by the club’s director of football, John Williams, and told that he was “not really fit, overweight”. Ndombele then worked hard to get himself in the shape required for an elite-level footballer.

More recently, Mourinho’s predecessor Mauricio Pochettino had been worried by the Frenchman’s condition. “For him it’s difficult. We cannot expect too much,” Pochettino said on the eve of the season starting.

In total, Ndombele has started 42 per cent of Spurs’ games this season, completed the 90 minutes just five times, and in his 22 appearances so far have averaged only 54 minutes per game.

All of which suggests he is a bit of a luxury player not to be relied upon.

And yet…

To watch Ndombele in action is to become a believer once more. Against Manchester City on Sunday, he was only on the pitch for 20 minutes, but still found time to create Son Heung-min’s decisive goal with a sumptuous turn and pass, and humiliate Rodri with an outrageous step-over and drop of the shoulder.

He is a player who generates so much buzz that even some fairly rudimentary stretching before the Southampton game was quickly packaged into a two-minute video for Twitter. Shortly after, he entertained the crowd by indulging in a few no-look passes just for the hell of it.

Once the game started, he was both mesmerising and maddening — a flicked pass on the volley here, a loose ball there. His first contribution was to lose Romeu with a balletic turn, only to instantly give possession away with a sloppy pass.

Ndombele even appears to run differently when in and out of possession — the grace when on the ball giving way to a meandering lollop when off it. He is so relaxed that he was comfortably the last man out on to the pitch for the second half, and his 61 per cent pass completion — the second-lowest of Spurs’ outfielders — underlines that this is not a player too concerned with keeping things ticking over just for the sake of it.

By the time the second half was under way, Ndombele looked close to running out of steam — making good on Mourinho’s pre-match assertion that he would not be able to last the full game. His head coach added afterwards: “I knew he couldn’t play 90 minutes.”

To try and help the situation, Ndombele has been placed on a bespoke fitness programme, taking in nutrition, sports science and individual training work. This is a sensible step, according to injuries analyst Ben Dinnery.

“Coming from Ligue 1, like Ndombele has, is a huge physical step up,” Dinnery he says. “Acclimatising to the Premier League is tough. The demands on the body are different, and all these changes he’s having to get used to could be going against the grain of some traits he’s been brought up with and played all his career with. Suddenly there are differences — even with Pochettino and Mourinho — and it’s about being able to tolerate and cope with that.

“Ndombele is young, and comes with a big price tag, a big reputation. He wants to prove himself — but it’s always going to be difficult because if you’re not in peak condition, you’re more likely to pick up knocks and niggles. It becomes a vicious cycle where you keep getting close to getting fit but then forcing it.”

Spurs will hope they have been patient enough to have ensured Ndombele will soon start to shake off these niggles. And when he does, he will surely be worth persevering with.

Football is supposed to be fun, and players who can make you laugh and smile as regularly as him don’t come along very often.

jonnyrotten · Feb 6, 2020

Thenewcat said:
So you think he looks fit? I’ll buy you a pie if you can honestly say you think his fitness is at the required level ??????

I'll say what you want for a pie and a pint!

Ronwol196061 · Feb 6, 2020

coyspurs18 said:
Mesmerising, maddening Ndombele remains as much of a conundrum inside Tottenham as he is to those outside

The 23-year-old midfielder's fitness issues can make him seem like a luxury player - but he also brings Spurs to life...

theathletic.com

In the early stages of Tottenham’s 3-2 win over Southampton on Wednesday, Tanguy Ndombele did the sort of thing that has you involuntarily laughing to yourself. In fact, he did it twice within a few seconds. First he tempted Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg towards the ball only to nick it away at the last millisecond. Then, with Hojbjerg out of the picture, Ndombele made Oriel Romeu look similarly stupid with an equally audacious drag-back.

As can be the case with Ndombele though, it came at a cost. Romeu committed a tactical foul and, in falling to the ground, Ndombele hurt his back. He did his best to run it off but seemed to be moving at half-pace at points until the break.

So it has been for Ndombele since joining Spurs: the verve mixed in with the vulnerability. He is a player who is utterly compelling to watch — seemingly possessing the ability to bend time to his will when he is on the ball — but who physically still seems some way short of being a regular option for Jose Mourinho. A riddle wrapped up in a mystery inside a Cruyff turn.

In last night’s FA Cup fourth round replay win for instance, he created the opening goal by booting a loose ball into the back of the net via Southampton’s Jack Stephens, but had to be substituted after 61 minutes with his reserves well and truly depleted.

And this is the crux of the Ndombele debate at present: is he a lavishly talented player who requires patience as he navigates his debut season in English football, or does he need a kick up the backside to get himself into shape? The Athletic understands that it is as much of a conundrum within the club as it is for their fans on social media.

To recap, this was only the 23-year-old’s second appearance, and first start, since he limped off after 25 minutes of the 1-0 loss away to the same opposition on New Year’s Day with a hip problem. After the match, Mourinho described Ndombele as being “always injured”. Six days earlier, Mourinho had said of Tottenham’s £55-million record signing missing the 2-1 Boxing Day win over Brighton: “He was not injured but not feeling in a condition to play.”

In between all that, Ndombele produced a man-of-the-match performance — including a stoppage-time rabona cross — in a 2-2 draw at Norwich City.

Publicly calling Ndombele out did not go down well with some members of the squad, The Athletic understands. Those uncomfortable about it felt Mourinho would have been better off dealing with the issue privately and that it should have been more of a discussion between the head coach and Tottenham’s medical staff.

Others at the club, however, were supportive of Mourinho’s position and felt concern at Ndombele’s lack of conditioning and general fitness levels.

After all, this was not the first time Ndombele has had these sort of issues. When he was with Amiens in 2016, he had to be sat down by the club’s director of football, John Williams, and told that he was “not really fit, overweight”. Ndombele then worked hard to get himself in the shape required for an elite-level footballer.

More recently, Mourinho’s predecessor Mauricio Pochettino had been worried by the Frenchman’s condition. “For him it’s difficult. We cannot expect too much,” Pochettino said on the eve of the season starting.

In total, Ndombele has started 42 per cent of Spurs’ games this season, completed the 90 minutes just five times, and in his 22 appearances so far have averaged only 54 minutes per game.

All of which suggests he is a bit of a luxury player not to be relied upon.

And yet…

To watch Ndombele in action is to become a believer once more. Against Manchester City on Sunday, he was only on the pitch for 20 minutes, but still found time to create Son Heung-min’s decisive goal with a sumptuous turn and pass, and humiliate Rodri with an outrageous step-over and drop of the shoulder.

He is a player who generates so much buzz that even some fairly rudimentary stretching before the Southampton game was quickly packaged into a two-minute video for Twitter. Shortly after, he entertained the crowd by indulging in a few no-look passes just for the hell of it.

Once the game started, he was both mesmerising and maddening — a flicked pass on the volley here, a loose ball there. His first contribution was to lose Romeu with a balletic turn, only to instantly give possession away with a sloppy pass.

Ndombele even appears to run differently when in and out of possession — the grace when on the ball giving way to a meandering lollop when off it. He is so relaxed that he was comfortably the last man out on to the pitch for the second half, and his 61 per cent pass completion — the second-lowest of Spurs’ outfielders — underlines that this is not a player too concerned with keeping things ticking over just for the sake of it.

By the time the second half was under way, Ndombele looked close to running out of steam — making good on Mourinho’s pre-match assertion that he would not be able to last the full game. His head coach added afterwards: “I knew he couldn’t play 90 minutes.”

To try and help the situation, Ndombele has been placed on a bespoke fitness programme, taking in nutrition, sports science and individual training work. This is a sensible step, according to injuries analyst Ben Dinnery.

“Coming from Ligue 1, like Ndombele has, is a huge physical step up,” Dinnery he says. “Acclimatising to the Premier League is tough. The demands on the body are different, and all these changes he’s having to get used to could be going against the grain of some traits he’s been brought up with and played all his career with. Suddenly there are differences — even with Pochettino and Mourinho — and it’s about being able to tolerate and cope with that.

“Ndombele is young, and comes with a big price tag, a big reputation. He wants to prove himself — but it’s always going to be difficult because if you’re not in peak condition, you’re more likely to pick up knocks and niggles. It becomes a vicious cycle where you keep getting close to getting fit but then forcing it.”

Spurs will hope they have been patient enough to have ensured Ndombele will soon start to shake off these niggles. And when he does, he will surely be worth persevering with.

Football is supposed to be fun, and players who can make you laugh and smile as regularly as him don’t come along very often.

I'm not a subscriber but thanks with this link

N'Obody · Feb 6, 2020

Hi guys.

Long time lurker on these forums. I won't deny that.

However, I believe that N'Dombele has it all to be the best CM in the world. He is a very gifted player, in terms of his natural ability to create something out of nothing. He has this aura about him, whenever he has the ball and you just know on his day, he will ghost past anyone trying to mark him.

I've read all the comments on this thread, and alot of it comes down to frustration because we all know how talented he is. His talent is God given, and he just has it.

I believe his problem is all psychological. I try to put myself in his position and try to understand what's going on. What i feel the issue really is...He's had a very hard and very easy path in football. Very hard because he had the natural talent, but lacked the mentality to be a top footballer in terms of athletic ability. This comes down to his eating habits growing up, his training habits as well. He has made it this far you would assume based on his old habits, and this is where i believe he's had it very easy.

In France the lower leagues, I would assume wouldn't have the best nutritionists, trainers etc. Therefore he made it based on pure talent alone, and that is commendable. However, all his issues could be down to his mentality... can he turn himself into a top tier athlete, as the PL has very high demands on the human body. He's never had it this hard before. The huge step up seems a bit too much for him right now, and it's showing in his overall body language.

This isn't to bash him or anything like that. I love this guy, and what he can do. He just needs to man up I believe and take responsibility of his overall condition and become the elite footballer everyone knows he can be!

This ties into what Jose has been talking about recently. They are taking extra care now to help him succeed, and help him adjust to being a PL footballer, as that's no easy feat. It's already very hard on him currently, as his body needs to really adjust and adapt to the demands required and that does take more time. PL standards for fitness are very high, he isn't there yet.

However...I am confident he will definitely get there by next season. Otherwise we wouldn't have invested in him. Next season, we will be talking about how aggressive and dominant he is going to be...and I for one cannot wait.

Here's to my first post ??

COYS!

coyspurs18 · Feb 6, 2020

Ronwol196061 said:
I'm not a subscriber but thanks with this link

Open the spoiler, I've copied the article over.

Sp3akerboxxx · Feb 6, 2020

N'Obody said:
Hi guys.

Long time lurker on these forums. I won't deny that.

However, I believe that N'Dombele has it all to be the best CM in the world. He is a very gifted player, in terms of his natural ability to create something out of nothing. He has this aura about him, whenever he has the ball and you just know on his day, he will ghost past anyone trying to mark him.

I've read all the comments on this thread, and alot of it comes down to frustration because we all know how talented he is. His talent is God given, and he just has it.

I believe his problem is all psychological. I try to put myself in his position and try to understand what's going on. What i feel the issue really is...He's had a very hard and very easy path in football. Very hard because he had the natural talent, but lacked the mentality to be a top footballer in terms of athletic ability. This comes down to his eating habits growing up, his training habits as well. He has made it this far you would assume based on his old habits, and this is where i believe he's had it very easy.

In France the lower leagues, I would assume wouldn't have the best nutritionists, trainers etc. Therefore he made it based on pure talent alone, and that is commendable. However, all his issues could be down to his mentality... can he turn himself into a top tier athlete, as the PL has very high demands on the human body. He's never had it this hard before. The huge step up seems a bit too much for him right now, and it's showing in his overall body language.

This isn't to bash him or anything like that. I love this guy, and what he can do. He just needs to man up I believe and take responsibility of his overall condition and become the elite footballer everyone knows he can be!

This ties into what Jose has been talking about recently. They are taking extra care now to help him succeed, and help him adjust to being a PL footballer, as that's no easy feat. It's already very hard on him currently, as his body needs to really adjust and adapt to the demands required and that does take more time. PL standards for fitness are very high, he isn't there yet.

However...I am confident he will definitely get there by next season. Otherwise we wouldn't have invested in him. Next season, we will be talking about how aggressive and dominant he is going to be...and I for one cannot wait.

Here's to my first post ??

COYS!

From what i've heard he didn't make it with natural talent at Amiens. Apparently he had been dropped and was very much on the periphery until he picked his socks up and knuckled down on his fitness. Once he actually started trying he earned a move to Lyon within 18 months.

Lumbering around with 61% pass completion vs Southampton is not the sign of a player that can make it on talent alone.

DJS · Feb 6, 2020

He should be given next season as some players do take a year to adapt.

Then if summer after next still struggling to complete games sell.

spursfan77 · Feb 6, 2020

Sp3akerboxxx said:
From what i've heard he didn't make it with natural talent at Amiens. Apparently he had been dropped and was very much on the periphery until he picked his socks up and knuckled down on his fitness. Once he actually started trying he earned a move to Lyon within 18 months.

Lumbering around with 61% pass completion vs Southampton is not the sign of a player that can make it on talent alone.

I honestly think he could be struggling with the move. Playing for us is so much bigger than playing for Lyon in France. He’s on more money and maybe he’s not putting it in again as much as he should be. I can’t imagine Poch would of tolerated that and neither will Mourinho if that’s what’s going on.

N'Obody · Feb 6, 2020

Sp3akerboxxx said:
From what i've heard he didn't make it with natural talent at Amiens. Apparently he had been dropped and was very much on the periphery until he picked his socks up and knuckled down on his fitness. Once he actually started trying he earned a move to Lyon within 18 months.

Lumbering around with 61% pass completion vs Southampton is not the sign of a player that can make it on talent alone.

I agree fully. The issue lies down to himself and him wanting it enough. At the moment he isn't showing enough. That doesnt mean that he won't make it either. Just needs patience and time.

He cant help the price tag, it's just football has gone crazy with these ridiculous fees, and that ties into fans expectations for a player to hit the ground running immediately. All he can do is knuckle down and show more hunger to become elite.

Investments sometimes take time before they really pay off, but then when it pays off. It really pays off.

Patience is all we can have with him. He will grow into an absolute boss.

fedupyid · Feb 6, 2020

Yesterday NDombele was awful but so were the rest of our team. Mourinho set the team up of the team was all wrong and playing three at the back made no sense. His poor passing accuracy stats come from not having anyone to pass to in front of him. The factis our movement before Dele came on was atrocious. Aurier and Sessengon struggled to create width as wing backs and then our Centre Backs struggled with the players running behind them. Then Son and Lucas were totally isolated.

mmidgers · Feb 6, 2020

fedupyid said:
Yesterday NDombele was awful but so were the rest of our team. Mourinho set the team up of the team was all wrong and playing three at the back made no sense. His poor passing accuracy stats come from not having anyone to pass to in front of him. The factis our movement before Dele came on was atrocious. Aurier and Sessengon struggled to create width as wing backs and then our Centre Backs struggled with the players running behind them. Then Son and Lucas were totally isolated.

Not sure that's the issue. He struggled to get around the pitch at times. Their opening goal could have been avoided, but ndombele couldn't track the oppo players run. He looked completely shot trying to chase him down. I'm sure he'll get through it if he applies himself properly

daryl hannah · Feb 6, 2020

mmidgers said:
Not sure that's the issue. He struggled to get around the pitch at times. Their opening goal could have been avoided, but ndombele couldn't track the oppo players run. He looked completely shot trying to chase him down. I'm sure he'll get through it if he applies himself properly

He got wiped out in the first half - a saints player clattered him and he hurt his hip so may have been carrying that all game.

When he came off, José looked at him concerned and said, "Are you OK?"

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