Jose Mourinho

fishhhandaricecake · Jan 12, 2020

SpartanSpur said:
One of my biggest gripes under Poch was his naivety (bordering on arrogance), in a lot of top 6 encounters, especially away from home. He wouldn't show enough respect to the opponent and it often led to us playing into their hands, and quite often getting thumped. Of course sometimes it paid off handsomely but we had our fair share of heavy defeats in his time.

Today Jose did his best to cover our weaknesses whilst trying to nullify their strengths. On the whole it worked. Sanchez and Tanganga did a good job on the front 3 with Toby backing them up. Aurier and Rose/Son led to their full backs having a very quiet game by their standards.

Son, Moura and Dele did enough running on the counter to worry them and commit fouls.

We hung in there, gave as little away as possible and then should have nicked at least a point with a strong finish. He didn't panic and go gung ho with attacking subs, but did make bold subs late on. That's more like it. That's the difference I was hoping to see Jose bring.

Like you said he seems to be trying to implement a modern plan A 'philosophy' with Sacramento for the lesser games, as an answer to the criticism of him being too reactive of late. Hopefully once he has 11 committed players he can trust this will click. It certainly gave us a lot of goals early on.

However today's gameplan, despite the loss, reminded me of what I always felt Poch lacked when trying to get over the line to win that elusive trophy (with our limited resources).

Absolutely spot on mate and I had the same criticism of poch in that I think as you say his lack of respect in a lot of the big games was a big reason why he didn’t get us over the line, I like how we played under him in the early days but I think today showed that Jose is on another level tactically and with better players and better suited players he could really do extremely well for us, we just need levy to listen to and back him and hope that Liverpool and Manchester City implode in the coming seasons and the others don’t re build too quickly so we can sneak in and win it all haha

but no seriously completly agree mate and some real positives.
jose had a week to work With the players before the Chelsea game and let’s be honest lampard outsmarted him BUT aurier and son also let him down before he could change it and get us back in the game, today with that same week to prepare against a vastly superior side we did ourselves very very proud.

COYS

SpartanSpur · Jan 12, 2020

fishhhandaricecake said:
Absolutely spot on mate and I had the same criticism of poch in that I think as you say his lack of respect in a lot of the big games was a big reason why he didn’t get us over the line, I like how we played under him in the early days but I think today showed that Jose is on another level tactically and with better players and better suited players he could really do extremely well for us, we just need levy to listen to and back him and hope that Liverpool and Manchester City implode in the coming seasons and the others don’t re build too quickly so we can sneak in and win it all haha

but no seriously completly agree mate and some real positives.
jose had a week to work With the players before the Chelsea game and let’s be honest lampard outsmarted him BUT aurier and son also let him down before he could change it and get us back in the game, today with that same week to prepare against a vastly superior side we did ourselves very very proud.

COYS

Funnily enough I was typing about the Utd and Chelsea games before I read your post. I was disappointed after both as I was hoping for more from such a renowned big match manager as Jose. Today restored some of that faith.

Looking back both of those games he was undermined by terrible errors at key times in both (2 early half pens at Utd and the karate kick and son red card vs Chelsea). We weren't playing great in either of those games (like today first half) but had we kept both a bit tighter and not given them the same confidence boosts with those errors, Jose may well have found a solution like today and we could have finished both games very strongly. Rope a dope style.

We did actually finish quite strongly against Chelsea despite the 10 men so in that game especially it wouldn't have been quite the leap for us to turn it around, had we got to HT at 1-0 and Son behaved.

fishhhandaricecake · Jan 12, 2020

SpartanSpur said:
Funnily enough I was typing about the Utd and Chelsea games before I read your post. I was disappointed after both as I was hoping for more from such a renowned big match manager as Jose. Today restored some of that faith.

Looking back both of those games he was undermined by terrible errors at key times in both (2 early half pens at Utd and the karate kick and son red card vs Chelsea). We weren't playing great in either of those games (like today first half) but had we kept both a bit tighter and not given them the same confidence boosts with those errors, Jose may well have found a solution like today and we could have finished both games very strongly. Rope a dope style.

We did actually finish quite strongly against Chelsea despite the 10 men so in that game especially it wouldn't have been quite the leap for us to turn it around, had we got to HT at 1-0 and Son behaved.

Yea he’s been pretty let down in the bigger games by some serious brain farts and no coach can plan for that. It’s like pep with Otamendi as good as Pep and his team are when Otamendi plays instead of Laporte they look a completely different more vulnerable team. When Gazzaniga & son are doing karate kicks and Aurier is sleeping during short corners there’s nothing Jose can do about that lol.

COYS

tiger666 · Jan 12, 2020

sausage said:
Considering the vast majority expected us to get a severe fisting, we did well and could have won it with better finishing and/or a completed pass or two.

People can moan about the starting lineup and the tactics, but it's all part of the recipe - I think we'd have been thumped if we started the same way we ended

Yeah I thought we were going to get ransacked. I guess that's why Jose is a professional and I spend all my time losing at football manager and talking bollocks on the internet.

hamsup_sotong · Jan 12, 2020

Plenty of positives to take from this one..
1. Jose tactics were spot on based on the personell we had available.

2.Tanganga excellent debut.. quick,strong good reading of the game. Jumped in a little too quickly at times but this will improve with experience.

3. Sanchez was excellent as well

4. Glc had a good impact as well ..seems to be getting used to the intensity of the English game... shame on the missed chance.

Onwards and upwards
Coys

jolsnogross · Jan 12, 2020

There were plenty of positives in terms of set up and performance, but we shouldn't delude ourselves about how beta we were against Liverpool. The tactics might have fit the circumstances on this occasion, but Mourinho has a history as a reactive manager who plays the percentages, albeit rather well. It's been successful for him. But that time may have passed. Poch played a progressive game on the front foot, albeit imperfectly, and we had season after season of fun and success. It was an unfinished project, but one that exceeded expectations until this season. That's all over now and a big switch to a pragmatic, reactive approach is risky and probably regressive. And if it doesn't succeed it will set us back a long way behind the front foot teams in this league.

There are percentages to hoofing the ball from the keepers hands until it drops vertically somewhere in the opponents half. And sometimes those odds are better than passing out quickly against the best pressing teams. But over the longer term, they aren't. Similarly, you can drop deep and hope to score on the break, needing to advance the whole field to do so. Or you can challenge higher up and make things happen there.

Maybe everyone can't play the current en vogue winning way, and someone needs to break out from it to find another way. But I doubt the tactical 'genius' of always being reactive, and playing long (and high!), is going to be it.

SpartanSpur · Jan 12, 2020

jolsnogross said:
There were plenty of positives in terms of set up and performance, but we shouldn't delude ourselves about how beta we were against Liverpool. The tactics might have fit the circumstances on this occasion, but Mourinho has a history as a reactive manager who plays the percentages, albeit rather well. It's been successful for him. But that time may have passed. Poch played a progressive game on the front foot, albeit imperfectly, and we had season after season of fun and success. It was an unfinished project, but one that exceeded expectations until this season. That's all over now and a big switch to a pragmatic, reactive approach is risky and probably regressive. And if it doesn't succeed it will set us back a long way behind the front foot teams in this league.

There are percentages to hoofing the ball from the keepers hands until it drops vertically somewhere in the opponents half. And sometimes those odds are better than passing out quickly against the best pressing teams. But over the longer term, they aren't. Similarly, you can drop deep and hope to score on the break, needing to advance the whole field to do so. Or you can challenge higher up and make things happen there.

Maybe everyone can't play the current en vogue winning way, and someone needs to break out from it to find another way. But I doubt the tactical 'genius' of always being reactive, and playing long (and high!), is going to be it.

I think we're going to have to wait another 6-12 months before we no before we truly know what Jose's football is going to be like. I do genuinely think he brought in Sacramento to try and create a modern 'front foot' system. The early games certainly showed plenty of attacking intent and yielded a lot of goals. He's always going to study and pay respect to the opponent, because that is what made him one of the most decorated managers in history.

As I've said before our awful football over the Xmas period was likely made worse due to fatigue, injuries, suspensions and low confidence.

JJ says he wants to build the team around Ndombele, a hoof ball side doesn't do that.

Maybe I'm being way too optimistic and he is past it, but I'm not so sure. Certainly not a big enough sample size to judge. He inherited a real mess at the busiest time of the season.

Ronwol196061 · Jan 12, 2020

hamsup_sotong said:
Plenty of positives to take from this one..
1. Jose tactics were spot on based on the personell we had available.

2.Tanganga excellent debut.. quick,strong good reading of the game. Jumped in a little too quickly at times but this will improve with experience.

3. Sanchez was excellent as well

4. Glc had a good impact as well ..seems to be getting used to the intensity of the English game... shame on the missed chance.

Onwards and upwards
Coys

Agree with all of those. Cant understand why Poch couldn't see Tangangas quality after pre season and the times I guess he was training with the team etc. That as desperate as we were he wouldn't use him.
I actually like Timmys comments but I didn't agree with him this week. He thought we should have gone on the front foot in the first half, I wouldn't have been so confident without Kane and Ndombele and thought Mourinho did the right thing by playing it tight in the first half. Our passing is no match with Liverpool. Their medium range passing and first touch is so good.There is a chance we could have put pressure on them and kept the wolf away from the door but it could have come at a huge price with their brilliant counter.Wih Ndombele and Kane that would have made more sense

fishhhandaricecake · Jan 12, 2020

jolsnogross said:
There were plenty of positives in terms of set up and performance, but we shouldn't delude ourselves about how beta we were against Liverpool. The tactics might have fit the circumstances on this occasion, but Mourinho has a history as a reactive manager who plays the percentages, albeit rather well. It's been successful for him. But that time may have passed. Poch played a progressive game on the front foot, albeit imperfectly, and we had season after season of fun and success. It was an unfinished project, but one that exceeded expectations until this season. That's all over now and a big switch to a pragmatic, reactive approach is risky and probably regressive. And if it doesn't succeed it will set us back a long way behind the front foot teams in this league.

There are percentages to hoofing the ball from the keepers hands until it drops vertically somewhere in the opponents half. And sometimes those odds are better than passing out quickly against the best pressing teams. But over the longer term, they aren't. Similarly, you can drop deep and hope to score on the break, needing to advance the whole field to do so. Or you can challenge higher up and make things happen there.

Maybe everyone can't play the current en vogue winning way, and someone needs to break out from it to find another way. But I doubt the tactical 'genius' of always being reactive, and playing long (and high!), is going to be it.

Agree there were plenty of positives and also agree in a way we were ‘beta’ to them but I’d argue that is due to our squad management and injuries not due to Jose. We had :Lloris, Davies, Sissoko, Ndombele & Kane out, they only had Fabiniho. Jose has to set up like that, he adapts to the circumstances which is why he’s been so successful in the past.

we played some good progressive football in his first few gAmes but since then injuries etc have hampered us and Jose hasn’t been able to put out a consistent team that he wants to.

i think and Hope from what he and ITK like JJ gav3 been saying that his plan A is 4231 build team around a core of Hugo,Toby,ndombele,son,Kane then in big gAmes and when we have lots of injuries then the bus and counter comes out giving us a much better chance than trying to outpress and outplay a vastly superior side.

id say he is reactive in game but his set ups are very much proactive trying to adapt to players he has at his disposal and the opposition we are facing.

marion52 · Jan 12, 2020

It’s one game so I’m not getting carried away but there were small shoots of improvement.
Proof will be carrying them over to the next few games

RichieS · Jan 12, 2020

I've been out this morning and have just seen JJ's latest info. Coupled with what José said about Davies the other day, it seems to me that we already have 9/11 players of his preferred starting lineup in place and just need to add a RB (possibly 2) and more quality options for the midfield 2. A bit of turnover elsewhere in the squad and we've got our show back on the road, imo.

fishhhandaricecake · Jan 12, 2020

RichieS said:
I've been out this morning and have just seen JJ's latest info. Coupled with what José said about Davies the other day, it seems to me that we already have 9/11 players of his preferred starting lineup in place and just need to add a RB (possibly 2) and more quality options for the midfield 2. A bit of turnover elsewhere in the squad and we've got our show back on the road, imo.

Spot on! And get our best players back and fit.

there is a rebuild to be done but it could be done I’d say more or less in 2-3 windows if we pull our finger out.

Carragher was way off yesterday saying we are done etc, we are 4-5 players away from being right back up there.

RichieS · Jan 12, 2020

fishhhandaricecake said:
Spot on! And get our best players back and fit.

there is a rebuild to be done but it could be done I’d say more or less in 2-3 windows if we pull our finger out.

Carragher was way off yesterday saying we are done etc, we are 4-5 players away from being right back up there.

All my opinion, obviously, but I feel the non-Spurs media (in particular) are totally blind to Pochettino's shortcomings so tend to side with his version of things. That's not me saying I didn't love the bloke and the way we played for 2-3 seasons under him, but his interpretation of the "rebuild" that is needed seemed to be a complete reset and, in the end, was way too extreme for me.

José's fresh pair of eyes, unsurprisingly, seem to see things slightly more calmly.

fishhhandaricecake · Jan 12, 2020

RichieS said:
All my opinion, obviously, but I feel the non-Spurs media (in particular) are totally blind to Pochettino's shortcomings so tend to side with his version of things. That's not me saying I didn't love the bloke and the way we played for 2-3 seasons under him, but his interpretation of the "rebuild" that is needed seemed to be a complete reset and, in the end, was way too extreme for me.

José's fresh pair of eyes, unsurprisingly, seem to see things slightly more calmly.

Agree

Ronwol196061 · Jan 12, 2020

fishhhandaricecake said:
Spot on! And get our best players back and fit.

there is a rebuild to be done but it could be done I’d say more or less in 2-3 windows if we pull our finger out.

Carragher was way off yesterday saying we are done etc, we are 4-5 players away from being right back up there.

The key for me is Ndombele.If he can come back and even just create from CM and LO Celso at AM,get a tough quality DM,Tanganga just filled a hole,We could do maybe with one more defender,get cover for Harry I think we are fine. 3 players.
If NDombele has a chronic problem then its totally different. Finding a CM is difficult. Go with an expanding Winks and I think we wouldnt be good enough. Nobody else seems a possibility and buying one will be difficult.

chelmyid · Jan 12, 2020

morris25 said:
I get the feeling as he is playing with a sitting LB, he's not looking for a DM but rather a double pivot, hence the signing of gedson fernandes.

Would also equate for him being happy Ben Davies is about to return and that fact he specifically said Davies is our only current LB (rose not fit, vertonghen not right, sess learning)

chelmyid · Jan 12, 2020

jolsnogross said:
There were plenty of positives in terms of set up and performance, but we shouldn't delude ourselves about how beta we were against Liverpool. The tactics might have fit the circumstances on this occasion, but Mourinho has a history as a reactive manager who plays the percentages, albeit rather well. It's been successful for him. But that time may have passed. Poch played a progressive game on the front foot, albeit imperfectly, and we had season after season of fun and success. It was an unfinished project, but one that exceeded expectations until this season. That's all over now and a big switch to a pragmatic, reactive approach is risky and probably regressive. And if it doesn't succeed it will set us back a long way behind the front foot teams in this league.

There are percentages to hoofing the ball from the keepers hands until it drops vertically somewhere in the opponents half. And sometimes those odds are better than passing out quickly against the best pressing teams. But over the longer term, they aren't. Similarly, you can drop deep and hope to score on the break, needing to advance the whole field to do so. Or you can challenge higher up and make things happen there.

Maybe everyone can't play the current en vogue winning way, and someone needs to break out from it to find another way. But I doubt the tactical 'genius' of always being reactive, and playing long (and high!), is going to be it.

I agree with the season of fun - but not success.
I truly believe he should have won something with that group and the way he had them playing. He showed is shortfalls by having no tactical plan. Not another load of poch wrong or right posts to follow - just interesting that people see it as successful - I guess it depends on your expectations??

RichieS · Jan 12, 2020

chelmyid said:
Would also equate for him being happy Ben Davies is about to return and that fact he specifically said Davies is our only current LB (rose not fit, vertonghen not right, sess learning)

Sess couldn't fill that role anyway but would be good on the left of the 4 in yesterday's formation. If/when Jan and Rose leave we're going to be looking for quite a specific sort of player to rotate with Davies.

dtxspurs · Jan 12, 2020

A complete rebuild under Mourinho is unlikely to work. In his 2 decades of management he's only lasted into his 4th season of a club once (12 years ago). And with the players he's likely to want vs. the budget Levy will likely give him, it all seems like a massive stretch.

Ronwol196061 · Jan 12, 2020

chelmyid said:
I agree with the season of fun - but not success.
I truly believe he should have won something with that group and the way he had them playing. He showed is shortfalls by having no tactical plan. Not another load of poch wrong or right posts to follow - just interesting that people see it as successful - I guess it depends on your expectations??

I think he did have a tactical plan but it was limited. The one thing it lacked was more creativity.It was built to squeeze the air out of games to put pressure on the opponent by pressing and talking advantage of super fitness levels. But we lacked creativity all the time from midfield. Dembele was perfect for Pochs system but in that area of the field we lacked getting more direct at that point. Dembele was very good in control,dribbling in close range but his passes were too often simple lay offs.
Fast forward now and our defence is not quite as dynamic physically,many teams have caught up in the physical sense (we have got worse) and we still lack creativity now with Eriksen pance and hopefully NDombele and Lo Celso can make us better that way than we were.Its not all dead. With Tanganga and a healthy NDombele we are 2or 3 players away from competing

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