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ENIC in or out?

ENIC in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 217 66.2%
  • Out

    Votes: 111 33.8%

  • Total voters
    328
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carmeldevil

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2018
7,589
45,113
Haven't read the thread other than a couple of posts here and there...

It all seems a bit distasteful to me, given what our owners and chairman have delivered over the last 6 years, and now with the appointment of one of the most successful managers in football history who we are paying the worlds second highest salary...

Yes, we probably should have won a couple of trophies in that time, but that's down to myriad factors.

I don't want the hierarchy to change. They've delivered world class facilities, probably literally some of the best in the world, kept us competitive (we don't know how hamstrung we were by the stadium build) and have planned everything to near perfection IMO. I feel like we are starting to see the final pieces of the puzzle begin to slot in.

Naming rights, investment in the squad, elite manager,

I think Levy has been masterful at how he's done it. I don't really know how he could have done it any better. The whole thing reeks of organisation, astute business acumen, sensible compromise, and ultimately delivery on all of it...
and no oil states ownership. I dread the day if enic sells to these type of entities or hedge funds.
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
Haven't read the thread other than a couple of posts here and there...

It all seems a bit distasteful to me, given what our owners and chairman have delivered over the last 6 years, and now with the appointment of one of the most successful managers in football history who we are paying the worlds second highest salary...

Yes, we probably should have won a couple of trophies in that time, but that's down to myriad factors.

I don't want the hierarchy to change. They've delivered world class facilities, probably literally some of the best in the world, kept us competitive (we don't know how hamstrung we were by the stadium build) and have planned everything to near perfection IMO. I feel like we are starting to see the final pieces of the puzzle begin to slot in.

Naming rights, investment in the squad, elite manager,

I think Levy has been masterful at how he's done it. I don't really know how he could have done it any better. The whole thing reeks of organisation, astute business acumen, sensible compromise, and ultimately delivery on all of it...

Okay Daniel...
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
This is honestly such a poor response to an utterly fair post, you're not doing yourself any favours by the way.

Honestly I found it sickening, yes we have a lot to be grateful for with ENIC and Daniel. But Daniel didn't get us into the top 4, he didn't turn us into a contender that was done by Pochettino on a shoestring. People have been very quick to deride Poch and his achievements and quick to praise Levy.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,988
81,937
Honestly I found it sickening, yes we have a lot to be grateful for with ENIC and Daniel. But Daniel didn't get us into the top 4, he didn't turn us into a contender that was done by Pochettino on a shoestring. People have been very quick to deride Poch and his achievements and quick to praise Levy.
In the 3 full seasons Redknapp managed us we finished 4th twice and 5th once.

Our turnover has continually got better and therefore the quality of players we have been able to buy.

We have continually improved since ENIC took over. Can’t discount them completely.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
Honestly I found it sickening, yes we have a lot to be grateful for with ENIC and Daniel. But Daniel didn't get us into the top 4, he didn't turn us into a contender that was done by Pochettino on a shoestring. People have been very quick to deride Poch and his achievements and quick to praise Levy.

So Daniel didn't get us into the top 4 but it's his fault we haven't closed on silverware despite being to 12 semi-finals (as @Shadydan has alluded to in previous threads).

I just don't see why anyone would look at these situations in such black and white terms. Without Levy, we don't have Poch. And while we may have had a shoestring budget (for good reason) its worth noting that we have been gradually upping out wage bill and have 2 players on 200k a week right now which is by no means 'budget'.

And lets be fair, we did get into the top 4 before Poch, with players that Levy had a big hand in getting for us like Modric, Bale, VDV etc.

Both our successes and our failures rest on the shoulders of everyone involved in the club. If we don't get rid of Poch when we do, and Spurs keep tumbling down, then that does rest on Levy's shoulder as he is the only one that could have stopped what was clear rot happening within the club.
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
In the 3 full seasons Redknapp managed us we finished 4th twice and 5th once.

Our turnover has continually got better and therefore the quality of players we have been able to buy.

We have continually improved since ENIC took over. Can’t discount them completely.

I have never discounted them.

So Daniel didn't get us into the top 4 but it's his fault we haven't closed on silverware despite being to 12 semi-finals (as @Shadydan has alluded to in previous threads).

I just don't see why anyone would look at these situations in such black and white terms. Without Levy, we don't have Poch. And while we may have had a shoestring budget (for good reason) its worth noting that we have been gradually upping out wage bill and have 2 players on 200k a week right now which is by no means 'budget'.

And lets be fair, we did get into the top 4 before Poch, with players that Levy had a big hand in getting for us like Modric, Bale, VDV etc.

Both our successes and our failures rest on the shoulders of everyone involved in the club. If we don't get rid of Poch when we do, and Spurs keep tumbling down, then that does rest on Levy's shoulder as he is the only one that could have stopped what was clear rot happening within the club.

I don't think I've ever said that Levy is to blame for us not getting silverware? But to use your argument our failures also rest on his shoulders, not just the manager.

I agreed that Poch had to go and should have probably gone in the summer if ITK is to be believed.

Yes, I remember us getting top 4 with Redknapp, I also remember us being in a title race and Levy getting Nelson and Saha in.

My problem is the praise Levy seems to be getting, I'm on the fence with Jose and time will tell if it was the right choice, but we might not have had to make that choice if Poch was backed in 2018.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
So Daniel didn't get us into the top 4 but it's his fault we haven't closed on silverware despite being to 12 semi-finals (as @Shadydan has alluded to in previous threads).

I just don't see why anyone would look at these situations in such black and white terms. Without Levy, we don't have Poch. And while we may have had a shoestring budget (for good reason) its worth noting that we have been gradually upping out wage bill and have 2 players on 200k a week right now which is by no means 'budget'.

And lets be fair, we did get into the top 4 before Poch, with players that Levy had a big hand in getting for us like Modric, Bale, VDV etc.

Both our successes and our failures rest on the shoulders of everyone involved in the club. If we don't get rid of Poch when we do, and Spurs keep tumbling down, then that does rest on Levy's shoulder as he is the only one that could have stopped what was clear rot happening within the club.

Indeed, people are arguing in absolutes like it has to be one or the other one's fault, why can't we appreciate that Poch was a vital part of our journey and helped us get where we are today but at the same time recognise that Levy has also played a vital part as well.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
I have never discounted them.



I don't think I've ever said that Levy is to blame for us not getting silverware? But to use your argument our failures also rest on his shoulders, not just the manager.

I agreed that Poch had to go and should have probably gone in the summer if ITK is to be believed.

Yes, I remember us getting top 4 with Redknapp, I also remember us being in a title race and Levy getting Nelson and Saha in.

My problem is the praise Levy seems to be getting, I'm on the fence with Jose and time will tell if it was the right choice, but we might not have had to make that choice if Poch was backed in 2018.

I honestly don't know what praise you're seeing, pretty much every man and his dog, our own fans, rival fans and the media paint Daniel Levy as some super villain (Jamie Carragher called Poch's sacking unfair ffs) and even in the wake of Poch's sacking there's many people who still don't have a clue as to why he was dismissed either that or they're not interested in entertaining a different argument that pains Levy in a good light.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
I have never discounted them.



I don't think I've ever said that Levy is to blame for us not getting silverware? But to use your argument our failures also rest on his shoulders, not just the manager.

I agreed that Poch had to go and should have probably gone in the summer if ITK is to be believed.

Yes, I remember us getting top 4 with Redknapp, I also remember us being in a title race and Levy getting Nelson and Saha in.

My problem is the praise Levy seems to be getting, I'm on the fence with Jose and time will tell if it was the right choice, but we might not have had to make that choice if Poch was backed in 2018.

I appreciate your apprehension.

I personally think that part of upping the wages of a lot of our players was backing Poch and the team to some degree.

Not sure if you recall the uproar on here a couple of seasons ago when papers we filled with rumours of this player or that player leaving and how poorly we paid our players.

Not signing the right players at the right time has to fall on Levy sure, but winning something and building a club that can compete consistently for years and years are two different things.

Like Jose or not, Levy is a big part of the reason why we can afford and have the stature to get a manager of his standing in the game.
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
I appreciate your apprehension.

I personally think that part of upping the wages of a lot of our players was backing Poch and the team to some degree.

Not sure if you recall the uproar on here a couple of seasons ago when papers we filled with rumours of this player or that player leaving and how poorly we paid our players.

Not signing the right players at the right time has to fall on Levy sure, but winning something and building a club that can compete consistently for years and years are two different things.

Like Jose or not, Levy is a big part of the reason why we can afford and have the stature to get a manager of his standing in the game.

Agreed, but Levy is only 1 half of that and Poch is the other, had we been languishing between 6-10 the last 5 years I don't think we would have had a chance of landing Jose regardless of the ground etc
 

RichieS

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2004
11,916
16,436
I have never discounted them.



I don't think I've ever said that Levy is to blame for us not getting silverware? But to use your argument our failures also rest on his shoulders, not just the manager.

I agreed that Poch had to go and should have probably gone in the summer if ITK is to be believed.

Yes, I remember us getting top 4 with Redknapp, I also remember us being in a title race and Levy getting Nelson and Saha in.

My problem is the praise Levy seems to be getting, I'm on the fence with Jose and time will tell if it was the right choice, but we might not have had to make that choice if Poch was backed in 2018.
None (or at most very, very few) of us know what backing Poche in 2018 really entailed. We know (from quotes by the player himself) that we went for de Jong - he didn't want to come (he'd probably already had contact from Barça at that point). I can't remember exactly, but I think we also wanted Ndombele and I'm pretty sure that Levy would've absolutely loved to hijack his Lyon transfer in the same way he nabbed Toby from Southampton, but it obviously wasn't doable that time (got him in the end at great expense though).

I've always been perplexed by the Grealish saga - Levy ostensibly fucked it up but it's not hard to imagine that Jack was a second or even third choice and, by the time preferred options were definitely off the table, Villa have managed to organise the sale of the club, thereby rendering the previously agreed c.£20m fee null and void.

Maybe Poche wanted Toby and Eriksen out that summer and that was what he meant by being brave/doing things differently (i.e. proactively selling our top players rather than having them nicked like in the past). No nibbles at Toby for £25m last summer rather suggests that the market for him may have been somewhat more limited than we think and I assume we'd all agree that selling Eriksen without a replacement would have gone down like a lead balloon.

The point I'm trying to make is that most of the supposition about that summer paints Levy in the negative when, in reality, it's not that difficult to suppose that things just didn't come off for him. We just don't (and will probably never) actually know what happened.

Edit: Nelsen and Saha - archetypal Redknapp signings. Genuine question: Has there ever been any information to suggest that H was unhappy with those signings?
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
None (or at most very, very few) of us know what backing Poche in 2018 really entailed. We know (from quotes by the player himself) that we went for de Jong - he didn't want to come (he'd probably already had contact from Barça at that point). I can't remember exactly, but I think we also wanted Ndombele and I'm pretty sure that Levy would've absolutely loved to hijack his Lyon transfer in the same way he nabbed Toby from Southampton, but it obviously wasn't doable that time (got him in the end at great expense though).

I've always been perplexed by the Grealish saga - Levy ostensibly fucked it up but it's not hard to imagine that Jack was a second or even third choice and, by the time preferred options were definitely off the table, Villa have managed to organise the sale of the club, thereby rendering the previously agreed c.£20m fee null and void.

Maybe Poche wanted Toby and Eriksen out that summer and that was what he meant by being brave/doing things differently (i.e. proactively selling our top players rather than having them nicked like in the past). No nibbles at Toby for £25m last summer rather suggests that the market for him may have been somewhat more limited than we think and I assume we'd all agree that selling Eriksen without a replacement would have gone down like a lead balloon.

The point I'm trying to make is that most of the supposition about that summer paints Levy in the negative when, in reality, it's not that difficult to suppose that things just didn't come off for him. We just don't (and will probably never) actually know what happened.

Edit: Nelsen and Saha - archetypal Redknapp signings. Genuine question: Has there ever been any information to suggest that H was unhappy with those signings?

Whenever we've got close, Levy has failed to capitalize, we've all seen that in various transfer windows, yes they have got us this far but why are people not questioning their ownership?

We were/are probably in agreement that Poch and other managers had taken us as far as they could, so now I'm saying (and others) that maybe this is as far a ENIC can take us? They've had 20 years and and we've won 2 league cups.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,988
81,937
I have never discounted them.



I don't think I've ever said that Levy is to blame for us not getting silverware? But to use your argument our failures also rest on his shoulders, not just the manager.

I agreed that Poch had to go and should have probably gone in the summer if ITK is to be believed.

Yes, I remember us getting top 4 with Redknapp, I also remember us being in a title race and Levy getting Nelson and Saha in.

My problem is the praise Levy seems to be getting, I'm on the fence with Jose and time will tell if it was the right choice, but we might not have had to make that choice if Poch was backed in 2018.
You stated "Daniel didn't get us into the top 4, he didn't turn us into a contender that was done by Pochettino on a shoestring ."

That is discounting Levy ENIC. You can't claim it was "done by Pochettino on a shoestring" when a different manager achieved the same in the same circumstances.
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
You stated "Daniel didn't get us into the top 4, he didn't turn us into a contender that was done by Pochettino on a shoestring ."

That is discounting Levy ENIC. You can't claim it was "done by Pochettino on a shoestring" when a different manager achieved the same in the same circumstances.

I disagree, managers have got us into the top 4 inspite of Levy.

When I say I don't discount them, I am grateful for what they have done with the training facilities and ground, you can't argue with that. But for me, it's time for a change.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,988
81,937
I disagree, managers have got us into the top 4 inspite of Levy.

When I say I don't discount them, I am grateful for what they have done with the training facilities and ground, you can't argue with that. But for me, it's time for a change.
So outside of one season by Leicester we are the only club without the mega riches to achieve top four but that has nothing to do with the owners or how the club is run?

Don't mind someone thinking it is time for a change but giving all the credit to the managers and none to the owners is just pure nonsense.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Whenever we've got close, Levy has failed to capitalize, we've all seen that in various transfer windows, yes they have got us this far but why are people not questioning their ownership?

We were/are probably in agreement that Poch and other managers had taken us as far as they could, so now I'm saying (and others) that maybe this is as far a ENIC can take us? They've had 20 years and and we've won 2 league cups.

This has already been answered numerous times...
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
So outside of one season by Leicester we are the only club without the mega riches to achieve top four but that has nothing to do with the owners or how the club is run?

Don't mind someone thinking it is time for a change but giving all the credit to the managers and none to the owners is just pure nonsense.

As is giving all the credit to Levy and ENIC
 
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