Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

punkisback · Nov 7, 2019

easley91 said:
Took me all morning to find a way of saying it, but seems in the mean time others have said it for me. Nothing racist or stereotypical about how I used the term.

Any how here is what I had prepared in response:

There is nothing to do with race/skin colour in my use of the word 'beast'. I've described white athletes the same (not directly on here) - Brock Lesnar, Braun Strowman, Tyson Fury, Cesaro, Cristiano Ronaldo etc. to name but a few. It's a simplifying way for me of saying they're big, strong, powerful and can do things in their relative sport/field not many others can. Lesnar's nickname is "The Beast" for starters.

Hi mate, there was no accusation at all. I understand that the adjective was made to praise him. I just feel at times it can be used to reduce players to their physical characteristics and overlook their skill; where I understand now that you have used it in a way to describe his all round abilties as a player. I think Tanguy is probably one of the most technical proficient players we have had in years and I want him to be praised for that; rather than his physical attributes which in my opinion are not his strengths.

easley91 · Nov 7, 2019

punkisback said:
Hi mate, there was no accusation at all. I understand that the adjective was made to praise him. I just feel at times it can be used to reduce players to their physical characteristics and overlook their skill; where I understand now that you have used it in a way to describe his all round abilties as a player. I think Tanguy is probably one of the most technical proficient players we have had in years and I want him to be praised for that; rather than his physical attributes which in my opinion are not his strengths.

I was referring to his passing ability as well as his physical attributes, which let's be honest is up there when you can see him hold off many players in one move. Not once did I say he wasn't technically proficient. When I personally use the term, it is describing their all round skill set (depending on what sport or field they're in).

Danny1 · Nov 7, 2019

Wow that racist argument escalated quickly. For me, Ndombele is a beast of a player, much like Kane, much like Bale, Ronaldo, Messi etc etc. My use of the term beast means a top level player, certainly no racial intentions.

Danny1 · Nov 7, 2019

Shadydan said:
Racism is just as prevalent today as it was 30 years ago

morningstaronline.co.uk

Ok?

spursfan77 · Nov 7, 2019

Just an outstanding player. I thought he looked fitter throughout the game yesterday actually.

yankspurs · Nov 7, 2019

Danny1 said:
Indeed! We are a team of big beasts now, with Dier, Kane, Gazza, Sanchez, Foyth, Sessegnon & Sissoko we are a big strong side which I love! Must be intimidating coming up against a team of players who are all so physically built and difficult to play against. Add that to the likes of Sonny, Lo Celso & Davis who aren't small guys either!

“Oh yeah, so intimidating

” - signed, English football

Shadydan · Nov 7, 2019

Danny1 said:
Ok?

Just thought I'd throw it in as I have some sympathy from the angle that @punkisback is taking.

Don't think @easley91 meant it other than saying Ndombele looks like a great footballer who could dominate the midfield but let's not dismiss the undercurrent of prejudice when describing footballers from a certain background because it clearly exists.

BringBack_leGin · Nov 7, 2019

punkisback said:
I've never seen or read the above players described as a beast on this forum. All three are physical athletes and all bigger than Tanguy, but i have never seen them used to describe them.

I wouldn't say this description is necessarily true for Tanguy; his skills are more technique and finesse than physical. In fact people where denigrating his lack of physique and fitness!

Trust me things like this do happen! People stereotype. I've been stuck on the wing or up top previously when joining new teams to add some "pace up top" when i'm probably one of the slowest.

several different posters referring to different white players (mainly Kane) as a beast, including Ryan Mason and young Troy Parrott.

Kiedis · Nov 7, 2019

I think it's nothing wrong in having some thoughts about the issue. "Beast" itself is obviously a bad word in itself, but I kinda notice that black footballers are sometimes heralded more for their physical attributes than technical, tactical and their understanding of the game, and sometimes in very stereotypical ways. Not saying anyone here is guilty of anything, but it's something to place somewhere in the back of your mind when you hear pundits describe certain players.

Shadydan · Nov 7, 2019

BringBack_leGin said:
several different posters referring to different white players (mainly Kane) as a beast, including Ryan Mason and young Troy Parrott.

There's a world outside SC guys, come on just using examples off here is pointless.

There's so many articles written about this all over the internet, Google black footballers beast and look, there's obviously an undercurrent there and people are aware.

yankspurs · Nov 7, 2019

Shadydan said:
There's a world outside SC guys, come on just using examples off here is pointless.

There's so many articles written about this all over the internet, Google black footballers beast and look, there's obviously an undercurrent there and people are aware.

Beast doesnt just means big or brawny. It could also mean ridiculously good. Son’s a fucking beast too. Is he big or brawny? No.

BringBack_leGin · Nov 7, 2019

People need to stop creating issues that don’t exist. Yes, some black players will be incorrectly assumed to be more brawn than brain, but this is equally assumed of many white players like Kane for a long time, Llorente, Crouch back in the day, Shelvey at Newcastle. Basically, irrespective of skin colour, physically large or powerful players often get assumed to be more brawn than brain.

On the flip side, I don’t seem to remember anybody doubting Ronaldinho’s brain, nor Seedorf’s, nor Rivaldo’s or Ronaldo’s, nor Kanoute’s or Anelka’s or Henry’s. Come to think of it, Ledley King and Rio Ferdinand were both praised far more for brain and skill than their physical gifts, despite being physically exceptional.

Racism exists in football, yes, but calling a powerful man by a word which metaphors his power is in no way an example of racial stereotyping.

easley91 · Nov 7, 2019

Shadydan said:
Just thought I'd throw it in as I have some sympathy from the angle that @punkisback is taking.

Don't think @easley91 meant it other than saying Ndombele looks like a great footballer who could dominate the midfield but let's not dismiss the undercurrent of prejudice when describing footballers from a certain background because it clearly exists.

This will be my last post on this, because I don't wish to derail the NDombele thread. I can see his point, and no doubt especially in recent weeks and months there has been more racism going on than anyone would like in this day and age. I have seen responses on twitter to Son's red card (or in fact anything he does) with an Asian man in a video. Casual racism/sexism still exists and it is no doubt horrible.

However, I would like to say we are getting to a point any word can be scrutinized and assumed to be used in an offensive way by anyone. It all comes down to context. The "N" word is still widely used between people of colour and I would say that is similar to our use of the "Y" word.

Anyway, this is definitely for another thread, as it will cover a hell of a lot more than just an adjective for NDombele.

Gbspurs · Nov 7, 2019

Danny1 said:
Indeed! We are a team of big beasts now, with Dier, Kane, Gazza, Sanchez, Foyth, Sessegnon & Sissoko we are a big strong side which I love! Must be intimidating coming up against a team of players who are all so physically built and difficult to play against. Add that to the likes of Sonny, Lo Celso & Davis who aren't small guys either!

I think in footballing terms there are 2 general uses for beast. 1 is the more normal use which is to refer to someone of impressive size/strength/athletism. This is Bale/Lukaku/Sissoko/Kane version of term. The other is for someone who "beasts" the opposition by dominating play. This is where Ndombele, Messi, Haaland etc come into it.

That's my understanding anyway.

dimiSpur · Nov 7, 2019

To get things back on topic, how good is he? There's a lot more to what we've seen so far IMO. He can be as good as he wants to be, he has no limitations. If he wants to be the best CM in the world, he will be within 2 years. He has everything. His passing is immense, his awareness, his technique. At one point I thought he snapped a Red Star player's ankles with a sharp turn that had the dude on his backside. He is fucking awesome. Him and GLC in the same side makes me horny.

philll · Nov 7, 2019

He possesses the ability to dispatch the ball accurately in any direction with what looks like minimal adjustment, no matter which way he's facing.

Time for Heroes · Nov 7, 2019

BEAST

Thewobbler · Nov 7, 2019

When did beast or beastmode become a racial thing.

beast:
a person that is extremely talented at whatever they do and always display great determination, dedication, and resilience to always win or want to win.

Beastmode:
Mode that you switch into when doing hardcore activities; having beast-like characteristics.

Crazy.

Anyway back on topic. Im still mad he didnt start at liverpool as he is our best midfielder. Hopefully poch starts playing our best 11 from now on and only rotate when its needed and not just to give everyone a game.

daryl hannah · Nov 7, 2019

EastLondonYid · Nov 7, 2019

I want us to stop singing ''He's one of our own''....to any homegrown players...i find it racist and hugely offensive ....

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