The Diamond

Japhet · Oct 2, 2019

I don't know whether Dier still has fitness issues but if not, I can't think of a better time to get him back in the hybrid CM/CB role that worked so well in the past. I don't remember issues with wide open spaces everywhere when we used that system in the past. If Dier can't do it, try Foyth in there.

Metalhead · Oct 2, 2019

Interesting that Stoke are playing a diamond and are struggling too.

Gassin's finest · Oct 2, 2019

Diamonds have never worked. Roy tried one when at England, and the space it left was horrible.

Buggsy61 · Oct 2, 2019

Wracking my brains here but seem to remember Venables experimenting with it as well back in the early 90’s.
For once on SC looks like we all agree on the current mess and to go back to what worked in the past. Sure to be discussed in today’s inevitable team meeting with some raised voices I would imagine.
We are about to find out what Poch is really made of I feel.

jonnyp · Oct 2, 2019

The diamond can work if you have a beast like Dembele or Wanyama in his beast days. Sadly, we don't have any such players anymore.

chrisd2k · Oct 2, 2019

jezz said:
The diamond actually worked in the first half.
We should have scored at least 3or 4.
We just don't have the personnel to use the diamond for 90 minutes.
Dier must have seriously pissed off Poch.
I personally think Foyth would be the perfect player for the defensive part of the diamond.
But we need a new right and left back.
Hopefully sess will be that left back.
Winks can't play the DM and this needs sorting sharpish.

The diamond didnt work in the first half. Every time they had the ball they looked dangerous, normally overloading our full backs due to a lack of width. The midfield then eventually got across leaving an even bigger hole on the other side leaving us very vulnerable to the switch of play

Spurrific · Oct 2, 2019

The more I think about it, the more baffled I am by Poch's decision to deploy the diamond last night. Bayern are famous for playing with width, with rapid operators like Gnabry and Coman - it was tactical suicide. I can't fathom how Poch couldn't have seen where the diamond might have struggled.

If we play this formation against Liverpool, they could put a similar number past us.

ardiles · Oct 2, 2019

I always knew that Poch had an account in SC.

@stormfly - your cover has been blown. I’m surprised you’d fall for such a simple trick. :LOL:

jezz · Oct 2, 2019

chrisd2k said:
The diamond didnt work in the first half. Every time they had the ball they looked dangerous, normally overloading our full backs due to a lack of width. The midfield then eventually got across leaving an even bigger hole on the other side leaving us very vulnerable to the switch of play

We opened up Bayern at will in the first half.
Creating 4 or 5 quality chances in the first half means it did work.
Son Kane and Ndombele all had chances and good ones to put the game to bed before Bayern scored the second.

DEFchenkOE · Oct 2, 2019

For me a diamond can work but you literally need to have the perfect players to play that system.

The width comes from the full backs so you need very fit, fast and powerful fullbacks that can get up and down and put in a decent delivery eg - Walker, Rose a few years ago, maybe someone like Robertson now.

At the base of the diamond you need someone defensively aware, comfortable on the ball but doesn't take too much risks. Snuffs out the danger before it happens - eg Busquets/Fernandinho or in a slower paced league Pirlo/Veratti

The 2 midfielders either side of the base need to also be really fit and powerful. I'm thinking Essien of years gone by being the perfect example of someone that can get up and down the pitch, or someone like Matuidi. Liverpool have Henderson and Wijnaldum who I think both have the skillset to play it. I think Sissoko has good attributes for this as well tbf.

The tip of the diamond needs someone world class imo. A proper no10 that can either score or make the team tick at all times. Riquelme, Kaka, David Silva type players.

Of course having good strikers and cbs help but I think the full backs and 4 midfielders are most crucial to making it work and work well.

Our problem is our full backs are poor, except Rose who we tried to move on. We don't have anyone good enough to play at the base of the diamond, and only Sissoko seems to have the engine and physicality to occupy one of the other cm positions. And our best no10 doesn't want to be at the club.

So how is it ever going to work? Poch needs to ditch it with immediate effect and it should have been gone months ago. It's really baffling to me that he can't see it and persists. It's been his downfall all year imo.

bigpalacios · Oct 2, 2019

I used to play with a diamond on PES in early 2001 and the work my midfielders had to do covering my full backs put amazing stain on my control pad.?

jezz · Oct 2, 2019

Shadydan said:
It's not just Dier or a DM in replace of Winks, it's the face that defensively in transition we don't have cover for the full backs as the 2cm's need to get out wide, when we lost the ball they are in the middle.

Happened against Liverpool and Dortmund last season, it just doesn't make any sense.

Bayern were just switching play last night to the oppesite flank and that knackered out both Sissoko and Ndombele as they had to shuttle across to cover.

That's why I said we don't have the personnel to play the diamond for 90 minutes.
We created more than enough chances to kill the game before half time.
Take those chances and the game is won.
Winks can not slot into a back 3 when wing backs go forward.
A back 3 will provide cover should the move break down and the wing backs are caught up the pitch.
That's why I think Foyth would make an excellent DM in the diamond.
Our problems for the last year has been the midfield.
That's why we bought 2 midfielders.
Poch has big decisions to make if he wants to carry on with the diamond.
Winks isn't the solution.

Japhet · Oct 2, 2019

Gassin's finest said:
Diamonds have never worked. Roy tried one when at England, and the space it left was horrible.

Worked for Mourinho in his first stint at Chelsea, but he had Essien at the base of it who was made for the job. It was also a relatively unusual formation before everybody had worked out what the weaknesses were.

wrd · Oct 2, 2019

My issue with it is that it's being used to shoehorn all his favourites in to the disregard of the collective.

Clearly on his favourites list we have
- Sissoko
- Winks
- Kane
- Son as a striker
- Maybe now Ndombele

If you sacrifice width in order to play the two strikers centrally then you need to have a defensive midfielder who can shield the defence which allows the fullbacks to offer width and the CB's to split and cover the space left behind. However we don't do that, instead we're trying to fit in 3 players in midfield who frankly should all be vying for one position and the clear winner is Ndombele, who would then benefit from the aforementioned defensive midfielder next to him or much better behind him.

My opinion even if we played a DM in the diamond we would still be vulnerable so for me he has to make a decision, Kane or Son up top. The obvious answer is to put Kane up top push Son out wide and then have another winger.

We then have the final spot in the midfield free, this is where we need to decide whether its 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and because of Ndombele's obvious talents further forward. I would favour switching to a 3 meaning that Winks/Sissoko/Dele/Lo Celso can fight for that spot depending on the opposition.

So for me it has to be:

Dier
Ndombele Lo Celso
Lamela Kane Son

I'd be looking to upgrade the DM if possible. but even this 4-3-3 we have so much opportunity for variance, we can go 4-2-3-1 easily in this formation even with the same dam players. All these players are flexible. If during the game you want to push Son in centrally with these players, move Kane into the 10 and have Lo Celso push outwide as he's done for argentina and have Ndombele drop back into a 2 and you can still retain the width. There's so much flexibility there but we seem to be actively avoiding width and fullback protection. We have done for 2/3 years.

Shadydan · Oct 2, 2019

jezz said:
That's why I said we don't have the personnel to play the diamond for 90 minutes.
We created more than enough chances to kill the game before half time.
Take those chances and the game is won.
Winks can not slot into a back 3 when wing backs go forward.
A back 3 will provide cover should the move break down and the wing backs are caught up the pitch.
That's why I think Foyth would make an excellent DM in the diamond.
Our problems for the last year has been the midfield.
That's why we bought 2 midfielders.
Poch has big decisions to make if he wants to carry on with the diamond.
Winks isn't the solution.

I don't think any team plays a diamond formations these days do they? I certainly can't think of any personnel who could come in and make it work...

DEFchenkOE · Oct 2, 2019

wrd said:
My issue with it is that it's being used to shoehorn all his favourites in to the disregard of the collective.

Clearly on his favourites list we have
- Sissoko
- Winks
- Kane
- Son as a striker
- Maybe now Ndombele

If you sacrifice width in order to play the two strikers centrally then you need to have a defensive midfielder who can shield the defence which allows the fullbacks to offer width and the CB's to split and cover the space left behind. However we don't do that, instead we're trying to fit in 3 players in midfield who frankly should all be vying for one position and the clear winner is Ndombele, who would then benefit from the aforementioned defensive midfielder next to him or much better behind him.

My opinion even if we played a DM in the diamond we would still be vulnerable so for me he has to make a decision, Kane or Son up top. The obvious answer is to put Kane up top push Son out wide and then have another winger.

We then have the final spot in the midfield free, this is where we need to decide whether its 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and because of Ndombele's obvious talents further forward. I would favour switching to a 3 meaning that Winks/Sissoko/Dele/Lo Celso can fight for that spot depending on the opposition.

So for me it has to be:

Dier
Ndombele Lo Celso
Lamela Kane Son

I'd be looking to upgrade the DM if possible. but even this 4-3-3 we have so much opportunity for variance, we can go 4-2-3-1 easily in this formation even with the same dam players. All these players are flexible. If during the game you want to push Son in centrally with these players, move Kane into the 10 and have Lo Celso push outwide as he's done for argentina and have Ndombele drop back into a 2 and you can still retain the width. There's so much flexibility there but we seem to be actively avoiding width and fullback protection. We have done for 2/3 years.

Couldn't have put it better myself, why does Poch not want to play with wingers? It's totally baffling to me. We clearly have the players for 433 or 4231.why is he persisting with this?

Shadydan · Oct 2, 2019

Japhet said:
Worked for Mourinho in his first stint at Chelsea, but he had Essien at the base of it who was made for the job. It was also a relatively unusual formation before everybody had worked out what the weaknesses were.

Mourinho played 4-3-3 with Duff and Robben as wingers.

jezz · Oct 2, 2019

Shadydan said:
I don't think any team plays a diamond formations these days do they? I certainly can't think of any personnel who could come in and make it work...

I don't think anyone does.
Me I prefer 4231

werty · Oct 2, 2019

Japhet said:
Worked for Mourinho in his first stint at Chelsea, but he had Essien at the base of it who was made for the job. It was also a relatively unusual formation before everybody had worked out what the weaknesses were.

He supposedly played it with Porto before joining Chelsea, but he never played it with Chelsea.

It worked for Liverpool a few seasons ago, and we've had some good performances over the years, but in general it's been bad for us. Poch has had an obsession for the last two seasons of trying to get two up front, whether it be the diamond or 352. Neither have been good for us. I'd love us to go back to 3421 for a couple of months, but I don't see that happening. 4231 is probably the most likely scenario. I don't think we're playing that well either, but it's the best of the likely formations.

Everlasting Seconds · Oct 2, 2019

The diamond itself is not the goddarn problem. The issue is far, far more complicated IMO than whether you line up 1-2-1 around the mid circle. It's the whole system A-Z that's flawed, not one singular combination of numbers. The issue is also choice of players. Some players are over used, some players are under used, and I doubt we'd field our objectively speaking best 11 players even if every single player was equally match ready. Stop this diamond focus, as bad as it is, the actual issue is more complex.

Forums

What's new

Matches

Sportsbook

Members

The Diamond

The diamond- turd or gem?

Turd

Gem

Well-Known Member

But that's a debate for another thread.....

C'est diabolique

Washed Up Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads