Style of play

theShiznit said:

The diamond is just an excuse formation to play Central midfielders in wide positions.

Can't think of one team that have ever used it successfully.
We've used it before (was it Ossie with the famous five?) I remember when England used to play it and Sherwood was picked left of the diamond and looked (as expected for a right footed Central midfielder) awful.

I can only think Poch thinks it's a way of changing our starting lines making more angles for passes but there's more to it than just picking players and telling them where to go.

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theShiznit said:

The diamond is just an excuse formation to play Central midfielders in wide positions.

Can't think of one team that have ever used it successfully.
We've used it before (was it Ossie with the famous five?) I remember when England used to play it and Sherwood was picked left of the diamond and looked (as expected for a right footed Central midfielder) awful.

I can only think Poch thinks it's a way of changing our starting lines making more angles for passes but there's more to it than just picking players and telling them where to go.

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danielneeds said:

We haven’t played with a an orthodox winger since Poch got here, so it can’t be a problem that’s come out of nowhere.

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jezz said:

Poch needs to learn quick.

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ljinko888 said:

For me these were the key principles of Poch's style of play 2014-17:

• 4-2-3-1 Starting Formation
• High defensive line
• Athletic full backs providing width
• Balanced midfield pairing
• The whole team pressed
• Lots of movement in attack

The only aspect that has constantly stayed the same after the last season at the Lane is the high defensive line.

Poch didn't really change the formation in those early years because in his words a formation is just a basic structure when we don't have the ball but in possession can easily become 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 or 4-2-4. But in the last 18 months he has changed that basic structure with his sudden obsession with 3 at the back. That worked for a while initially when it was Dier alongside Vertonghen and Alderweireld because Dier pushed back when the full backs moved up, and pushed up when the full backs stayed back. That was a prime example of a formation changing within game naturally in possession. Dier did it naturally because he is a hybrid player. But Sanchez is a natural defender. He's not going to stroll into the midfield to join the play. When you start Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Sanchez in a 3 at the back shape it will only ever be a 3 at the back shape. And sometimes having that extra defender is a waste of space. It means one less forward for example. Now he is obsessed with the diamond formation.

We know about the full backs. Walker was sold and Rose has been plagued by injuries. In fairness Davies who I really rate as a fine player has done a good job since being elevated to first choice but he's a different style of player. I'd say he has a better final ball than Rose but the difference is Davies might get in a dangerous position to create a chance 2 times in a game and deliver 1 whereas Rose's aggressive style meant in his peak pre-injury he could get in that same position 5 times in a game and deliver 2. Rose being statistically more wasteful but more threatening also. Trippier was never like for like for Walker either but was useful until the last season whereas the one we expected to step in (Aurier) doesn't stay fit for long enough.

The midfield pairing is crucial for me because we used to win that battle in most games whereas now the games we are playing in are a lot more open. We give up a lot more chances on our goal. Peak Dembele was the one we all mesmerise over but 2016/17 Wanyama was a colossus as well. That was a pairing that saw us win the battle, run teams into the ground, transition from defence to attack and generally run the show. That was the zenith under Poch so far. But before that even when we had Dier screening in 2015/16 or Bentaleb and Mason zipping around right at the start, there was more energy and swiftness in our build up play. Admittingly back then we were not considered anywhere near a top side so teams showed less "respect" to us and tried to take us on more which obviously allowed more open spaces whereas now we play against many sides just parking the bus. But the two midfielders of last season who got a lot of praise - Sissoko and Winks - did play well in their respective roles but as a pairing they are not compatible. Sissoko is a bulldozer who does his job by having in effect a free role to drift out wide in attack and push on forward. Winks on the other hand plays within a smaller compartment of the pitch. It was not balanced at all but we got away with it for a long while and with injuries didn't have much else choice.

The lack of pressing is not something you can pin on Poch. We have had an unprecedented number of injuries and with the lack of transfer activity for reasons non-football related it put him in a position no other manager can really understand. Furthermore when players get older the effects of wear and tear are more prominent so he had to protect his players. He had to hold back on how much he demanded from them. Then there's the fact one or two might get demotivated or less inclined to agree and just lower their level by design. Younger and newer players who have something to prove and establish themselves are more inclined to run around like maniacs.

The lack of movement goes hand in hand with the lack of pressing. When you win the ball high there is a buzz of excitement from everyone in the stadium because you sense a chance. Then you want to do it again. And it becomes habit and your movements become habit. When you're not pressing and players are standing still it's hard to turn on that intensity. City have insane intensity because they sense a chance every time they go forward. And they sense it because they are conditioned into doing it.

When we stopped pressing as a team, stopped winning midfield battles, stopped having full backs running up and down the wing, we stopped having that sense of urgency. You can get that back but you need a series of big wins to produce morale, camaraderie and expectation again.

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kcmei said:

Eriksen is an excuse, since the second half of last season, our football philosophy has been nothing but sht. Passing the ball around the back four and doing fk all with the ball while taking absolutely zero risk. I think there is stat suggesting our form since end of last season has been relegation form. If we dont wake up fast and change our style of play, we won't get into the top 6, let alone top 4.

Football is about chance, and if you don't take chance, then it's not football. Watching defenders just passing the ball between the back 4 is worse than watching paint dry.

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Wadec said:

Poch needs to take a long look at himself. If he is not prepared or able to get the best out of a group of players, he has assembled he needs to walk.

I love Poch and he is the best manager in my life time, however the results and more worryingly performances are not that of a team engaged or coached well. Changes are needed whether that be in his backroom team or methods.

I feel that in his first few seasons with us the team and players each knew their roles and had a clear direction on how we/they were playing. I feel for too long we have relied on individual performances and solid team performances are few and far between. There is a pattern forming where we start a game poorly and have to adapt.

Pep has always said he believes that you can only stay at one club for so long before it becomes stale. I hope and believe Poch can turn this around but I dont know if he is enjoying working with this group at the moment and I feel it is reflecting in our performances.

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double0 said:

Pochettinho has already identified the need to freshen up the squad and with the additions of Ndombele Lo Celso Sessegnon Clarke and other development players once all fit they'll be a new dynamic. I feel there is negativity in the group around contractual situations with Eriksen Vertonghen Rose Alderweireld. It's now affecting the spirit. Personally I'd get rid of all since they're stalling cut them off and go with the players buying into the next project phase.

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double0 said:

Pochettinho has already identified the need to freshen up the squad and with the additions of Ndombele Lo Celso Sessegnon Clarke and other development players once all fit they'll be a new dynamic. I feel there is negativity in the group around contractual situations with Eriksen Vertonghen Rose Alderweireld. It's now affecting the spirit. Personally I'd get rid of all since they're stalling cut them off and go with the players buying into the next project phase.

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DEFchenkOE said:

When was the last time we actually started a game well and played good football for the first 45 mins?

I don't think there is an issue with players at the club but with the tactics and style that Poch is trying to implement. I'm convinced that he does not like wingers/wide forwards, has not really played with one since he's been with us. Maybe Son and Moura but they are both deployed quite narrow. And both of their off the ball movement is poor.

Also we move the ball sooooo slow, we win the possession in the majority of games we play but rarely look an attacking threat. All 3 teams we've faced this season have looked more dangerous than us.

Was arguing with some friends in a Whatsapp group about the city draw, they were rolling off all the stats about how city haven't lost and only conceded x amount of goals this year and most of them against us. Which is all fine, but I was extremely worried about the way we played against them. We literally looked like having no idea how to attack, the gulf in class was insane. Would have rather lost that game but playing good football, would have given me more hope for the Newcastle game where we played just as bad.

I know football is a results business but if you analyse a game without emotion that's when you can really see if we're heading in the right direction or not.

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John48 said:

Well we have an issue for Sun with KWP almost certainly out, Foyth not fit yet & Aurier seemly off to Italy, so should we be looking at 3 at the back with either Dier or Verts coming in?

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double0 said:

Pochettinho has already identified the need to freshen up the squad and with the additions of Ndombele Lo Celso Sessegnon Clarke and other development players once all fit they'll be a new dynamic. I feel there is negativity in the group around contractual situations with Eriksen Vertonghen Rose Alderweireld. It's now affecting the spirit. Personally I'd get rid of all since they're stalling cut them off and go with the players buying into the next project phase.

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