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Harry Winks - Leicester City

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,057
6,511
Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.
 

Gbspurs

Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
Jan 27, 2011
26,945
61,823
Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.

Son and Alli will help too.
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
5,838
18,570
Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.

This annoyed the shhhh out of me on the weekend, our entire team besides the man on the ball were constantly standing still waiting for something to happen. We need our forwards to make intelligent and penetrating runs through the lines for players like Lo Celso and Ndombele to be effective.

If a team parks the bus we cannot spend 60+ minutes passing sideways due to lack of off the ball movement, the players need to be more proactive than that. City and Pool deal with the same problems and yet they manage to put goals past these teams, that's because their forwards make intelligent runs between the lines to break the defensive solidarity. This is something we desperately need to work on.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,679
104,956
Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.

I was surprised by the sub on Saturday. I thought the most obvious one, at half time actually, was Eriksen for sissoko. That’s probably because of my predetermined preference for quality on the ball over power though probably.
 

Gbspurs

Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
Jan 27, 2011
26,945
61,823
I was surprised by the sub on Saturday. I thought the most obvious one, at half time actually, was Eriksen for sissoko. That’s probably because of my predetermined preference for quality on the ball over power though probably.

I suspect fitness was one of the deciding factors for the change. Winks certainly took a knock.
 

tooey

60% banana
Apr 22, 2005
5,228
7,948
This annoyed the shhhh out of me on the weekend, our entire team besides the man on the ball were constantly standing still waiting for something to happen. We need our forwards to make intelligent and penetrating runs through the lines for players like Lo Celso and Ndombele to be effective.

If a team parks the bus we cannot spend 60+ minutes passing sideways due to lack of off the ball movement, the players need to be more proactive than that. City and Pool deal with the same problems and yet they manage to put goals past these teams, that's because their forwards make intelligent runs between the lines to break the defensive solidarity. This is something we desperately need to work on.

It's too simplistic to blame the movement of the front players when Villa defended as deep and compact as they did. It's impossible to break lines when your opposition are defending in 2 banks that are about 10 meters apart.

I saw people criticising that we were just passing sideways...a criticism that's offered up a lot when we're at home against weaker teams, silly criticism, we pass sideways to try and stretch their defensive unit to find gaps for our attackers to move into. The issue is that other than Eriksen and to a lesser extent Lamela/Dele we dont really have anybody intricate enough to create chances in tight spaces.

We saw the goals go in when they did because Villa became fatigued mentally and physically and allowed space for us to operate.
 

leelee

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2004
4,364
2,095
Nah but my EYES are telling me he doesngt pass forwards and only passes backwards and only passes sideways and my eyes are the best because theyre mine and i dont need no stats to tell me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards because my eyes told me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards and my eyes are more reliable than facts because i know football and in football harry winks only passes sideways and he only passes bakwards and my eyes told me he does

That's all Rodri seemed to do for Atletico last season, yet City paid over 60m for him. Busquets too at Barca.

Winks is quality. Teams need players like Winksy.
 

Stamford

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2015
4,121
19,829
Nah but my EYES are telling me he doesngt pass forwards and only passes backwards and only passes sideways and my eyes are the best because theyre mine and i dont need no stats to tell me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards because my eyes told me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards and my eyes are more reliable than facts because i know football and in football harry winks only passes sideways and he only passes bakwards and my eyes told me he does

I love Winks but its ok to use your own eyes to asses a game, particularly when you're in the ground. The meaningless stats trotted out by Sky etc aren't as useful as made out
 

nedley

John Duncan's Love Child
Jul 28, 2006
13,941
28,069
I think the position of holding midfielder, or deep lying playmaker is also one of the most difficult to to learn. There is so much going on at every moment, you don’t get time to rest like a CB or a striker. You’re constantly in the game having to make decisions. Experience is vital for learning the role properly.

Ngolo Kante at the age of 24. Older than Winks was playing in the second division in France.

Time.
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

Well-Known Member
Jul 10, 2008
15,980
48,498
I love Winks but its ok to use your own eyes to asses a game, particularly when you're in the ground. The meaningless stats trotted out by Sky etc aren't as useful as made out

It’s fine to use your own eyes but just know what you see will always be influenced by predetermined biases.
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2004
6,051
6,342
It's too simplistic to blame the movement of the front players when Villa defended as deep and compact as they did. It's impossible to break lines when your opposition are defending in 2 banks that are about 10 meters apart.

I saw people criticising that we were just passing sideways...a criticism that's offered up a lot when we're at home against weaker teams, silly criticism, we pass sideways to try and stretch their defensive unit to find gaps for our attackers to move into. The issue is that other than Eriksen and to a lesser extent Lamela/Dele we dont really have anybody intricate enough to create chances in tight spaces.

We saw the goals go in when they did because Villa became fatigued mentally and physically and allowed space for us to operate.

but isnt that why we keep moving the ball so they have to chase tire and spaces appear?
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
5,838
18,570
It's too simplistic to blame the movement of the front players when Villa defended as deep and compact as they did. It's impossible to break lines when your opposition are defending in 2 banks that are about 10 meters apart.

I saw people criticising that we were just passing sideways...a criticism that's offered up a lot when we're at home against weaker teams, silly criticism, we pass sideways to try and stretch their defensive unit to find gaps for our attackers to move into. The issue is that other than Eriksen and to a lesser extent Lamela/Dele we dont really have anybody intricate enough to create chances in tight spaces.

We saw the goals go in when they did because Villa became fatigued mentally and physically and allowed space for us to operate.

The problem isn't the sideways passing, it's the off the ball movement. I understand why we pass sideways and attempt to stretch the defense out and play wide to open up gaps for the attackers to move into, however we seem to revert to trying to cross into the box with players down the wings who cannot put in decent crosses on a consistent basis, this hinders us through the middle.

This is the reason why Eriksen thrives, because he is not afraid to try the forward pass through the middle when the defense is stretched. We don't always have to play out wide to stretch defenses, we need intelligent passes and movement through the middle to allow our midfielders outlets other than passing to each other or our defense.

I understand this is easier said than done in theory, but it's not impossible. Ndombele was clearly frustrated for periods in the game as he was waiting for someone ahead of him to create some space and open up for one of his forward passes (Arguably one of his best attributes) but the movement just wasn't there. We were frustrated and flat footed.

When Eriksen came on the forwards had a clear change in mindset, it's like they knew they had someone to thread those passes for them and thus made the movements that were necessary. If they had the same trust in Ndombele and Winks/Sissoko, I'm sure we would've had a better 60+ minutes than we did without Eriksen.

Just my onions ofcourse, not that I know any better than the professionals this was just my observation.
 

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
That's all Rodri seemed to do for Atletico last season, yet City paid over 60m for him. Busquets too at Barca.

Winks is quality. Teams need players like Winksy.
Agreed. I was just taking the piss with that post. Not sure I made it satirical enough.

I love Winks but its ok to use your own eyes to asses a game, particularly when you're in the ground. The meaningless stats trotted out by Sky etc aren't as useful as made out
I generally think that the best analysis comes from a combination of the two. I think it's fine, as long as you're capable as seeing it as nothing more than your own novice opinion, but too many people see their eyes and themselves as an authoritative source and aren't humble enough to realise that a lot of the time they know fuck all, myself included. That's when we get people rolling out the 'he proved me wrong' line. No, he didn't. The person was just wrong in the first place and not humble enough to admit it.

The problem too is that people use the eye test for things that can be quantitated, and when it come to Winks and his passing a lot of people who are critical roll out the passing backwards and sideways line, but when shown their claims are categorically untrue they ignore. They're statistical arguments they're making, so the eye test just doesn't cut it as a source.

It’s fine to use your own eyes but just know what you see will always be influenced by predetermined biases.
Bingo. Absolutely this.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Hoddle once said that he’d play the pass to where he wanted the forwards to run, and then the forwards would be forced to make the runs.
 

nedley

John Duncan's Love Child
Jul 28, 2006
13,941
28,069
The problem isn't the sideways passing, it's the off the ball movement. I understand why we pass sideways and attempt to stretch the defense out and play wide to open up gaps for the attackers to move into, however we seem to revert to trying to cross into the box with players down the wings who cannot put in decent crosses on a consistent basis, this hinders us through the middle.

This is the reason why Eriksen thrives, because he is not afraid to try the forward pass through the middle when the defense is stretched. We don't always have to play out wide to stretch defenses, we need intelligent passes and movement through the middle to allow our midfielders outlets other than passing to each other or our defense.

I understand this is easier said than done in theory, but it's not impossible. Ndombele was clearly frustrated for periods in the game as he was waiting for someone ahead of him to create some space and open up for one of his forward passes (Arguably one of his best attributes) but the movement just wasn't there. We were frustrated and flat footed.

When Eriksen came on the forwards had a clear change in mindset, it's like they knew they had someone to thread those passes for them and thus made the movements that were necessary. If they had the same trust in Ndombele and Winks/Sissoko, I'm sure we would've had a better 60+ minutes than we did without Eriksen.

Just my onions ofcourse, not that I know any better than the professionals this was just my observation.

Because that's his role.

That isn't necessarily the same for Winks.
 

tooey

60% banana
Apr 22, 2005
5,228
7,948
but isnt that why we keep moving the ball so they have to chase tire and spaces appear?

It absolutely is. That's sort of my argument. Part of the reason our front line appeared so static was because they really had nowhere to go due to Villa playing ultra-deep and narrow (part of the reason our narrow formation wasn't effective) it wasn't until they started to tire that Kane, in particular, was afforded some space to operate.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is a really simple one, Winks' role in large part is to primarily keep hold of the ball and to also shift it as much as possible to ensure the opposition are having to constantly cover ground. His passing may not be the most direct or progressive at times but that's not because he's naturally risk adverse or incapable of producing these passes, it's because when we're playing against sides who are content with a point and defend extremely deep we need to move the ball, with the aim of tiring them until they break, not lumping the ball up top at every opportunity.
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
5,838
18,570
Because that's his role.

That isn't necessarily the same for Winks.

Winks and Ndombele have the skill set to make these passes, the movement ahead of them seems to be the issue. Of course Ndombele is more of a deep lying playmaker than Winks, but in a fluid team such as ours Winks can pass the ball really well and towards the final third too, but there are no runs being made. This can be for a number of reasons, first game of the season, players holding their energy levels for the full 90 minutes, preseason rust etc but the point still stands, against Villa we lacked forward movement off the ball.

I know Winks job is to keep the ball moving and to help us transition between defense and attack, and not necessarily make incisive passes forward but I think he could manage it if the players ahead of him were making intelligent runs.

It can be frustrating when we transition from defense to midfield fairly quickly then we labor to get the ball into the final third, giving teams a chance to regroup and defend in numbers.

If we do indeed end up losing Eriksen, the bulk of our creativity as a team will come from the middle of the park. So Winks, Lo Celso and Ndombele will have to make up for his passing and vision collectively. This will be impossible if the players ahead of them don't make the runs and movement needed to unsettle and disband a stubborn defense. We will once again revert to crossing the ball into the box, and that's not how we are going to win any titles.

This has happened on a few occasions (mostly beginning of the season I'll admit) and I really think it's something we can work on and improve. Which is incredible, because we are playing at such a high level that we have to find small issues to improve upon because we play so well as it is.
 
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