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World Cup Discussion Thread - Day 12 (25 June)

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
There will always be problems with it. The NFL still haven't ironed them all out and they've been trying one system or another since the mid 80's. GER/SWE Boateng non-penalty. The Iran penalty today. Too many problems. It's going to add just as many mistakes as it fixes.

Nothing is ever going to be perfect but this system is proving to be far better than the one ref system, that's been proven so far.
 
D

Deleted member 27855

I think shit ref on the pitch mostly. A review doesn't mean that he has to give it and that penalty Iran got certainly wasn't one. Add that Iran were denied a pen much earlier and all VAR calls in the match took ages.

It only takes one awful ref to bring the system down
Just on the pitch? What about the replay official in the booth in the GER/SWE match and the obvious Boateng penalty? He didn't even call for the referee to review that. Ridiculous.
 

bomberH

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2005
28,455
168,222
Uruguay v Portugal.

Pepe to kick Suarez in the face, Suarez catches foot in his mouth, bites through boot and chomps Pepe’s big toe off. Both sent off for violent conduct. Everyone in all other countries around the world happy.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
The whole VAR thing is rooted in the biggest problem the game has when it comes to officiating: the idea that the person of the ref is to be treated as some form of God-like figure. It's part of the same culture that prevents managers from criticising them without punishment.

Don't get me wrong, the referee should be respected. But if they are the embodiment of the rules of the game, then interpretation needs to be stamped out; if the rules of the game are black and white, there can't be grey areas when it comes to the application. There has to be a concerted effort to make sure that there is consistency in how referees apply the rules. Like with Ronaldo's yellow. The review was whether it was a red card or not. Either it's a red or nothing. You can't have a halfway-house application of the rules.

There has to be a moratorium on criticism of referees. I stress that I'm not advocating that players and coaches should be allowed to pressurise them during a match - in fact, I think that any encroachment on the ref should be penalised.

But VAR is becoming mired in precisely the same situation as referees are in: that between 10 different VA referees, you're likely to get 10 different interpretations of incidents.

Why doesn't rugby suffer these issues? Why doesn't tennis? Or cricket?

We need to stop treating referees as the voice of God and managers and players should be allowed to criticise referees after matches and call attention to bad calls so as to put pressure on refereeing authorities to start sorting the problem out.

Anyway, probably the wrong forum for that kind of discussion. Hey ho! Onto Groups C & D.
 

Pellshek

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2015
2,509
7,289
It doesn’t have to be deliberate Shearer you twonk

Incorrect. In fact, the opposite is true; deliberateness is the only criteria that's mentioned with respect to hand ball in the official rules of the game. If it's not deliberate, it's not hand ball - that's all the rules say. Handball is a seriously under-developed aspect to the rules.

This stuff people always say about hand moving towards ball, or arm in an unnatural position - it's largely gibberish. Whether it was deliberate or not is all that matters, per the rules.
 

Hakkz

Svensk hetsporre
Jul 6, 2012
8,196
17,270
Imagine BC if we had Carvalho and Dier in central midfield taking care of the passing :LOL:
 

stonecolddeanaustin

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2011
1,623
2,598
The ball was heading toward goal and the arm stopped it. Interpretation is that it stopped a goal scoring opportunity

If thats a pen then its a matter of time til the attacking players start trying to kick the ball at the defenders arm to win a pen.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
This is literally impossible. Every sport that has fouls/penalties means the referee has to make an interpretation.
OK, maybe stamped out was a bit strong. But they can be more closely aligned than they are currently.
 

LeSoupeKitchen

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2011
3,102
7,621
Feel sorry for the ref. He was told to look at these bull**** incidents under huge pressure given the VAR team had already wasted 4mins and all the players were going bananas.
 

Hakkz

Svensk hetsporre
Jul 6, 2012
8,196
17,270
Feel sorry for the ref. He was told to look at these bull**** incidents under huge pressure given the VAR team had already wasted 4mins and all the players were going bananas.

I feel sorry for the ref who gets to take care of the final.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Why doesn't rugby suffer these issues? Why doesn't tennis? Or cricket?

Just on this point, they do. Any of the posters on here who regularly watch rugby will tell you that there are incidents in matches and the video ref/on field ref manage to make plenty of controversial, and inconsistent calls. Even cricket isn't immune, with stuff like contentious claimed catches and the use of technology to decide if there have been edges.

It's not just football where VAR doesn't run smoothly. Whoever deals with the incidents, whether on or off the field, you are still at the mercy of an individuals opinion. There will still be inconsistency across the board. There will still be plenty of controversial moments where teams feel hard done by.
 

Partizan

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
6,573
3,405


Even funnier when you consider Amrabat said this about Ziyech leading up to the World Cup "I told Hakim Ziyech not to say what he thinks. He's like Zlatan, I love him too but sometimes he's not smart.” Guess who's actually the one trying to contain the other here :whistle:
 
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cwy21

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2009
9,448
7,930
I don't understand Morocco's problem. Spain's goal was onside. The system worked.

Iran-Portugal was a disaster of course.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
The whole VAR thing is rooted in the biggest problem the game has when it comes to officiating: the idea that the person of the ref is to be treated as some form of God-like figure. It's part of the same culture that prevents managers from criticising them without punishment.

Don't get me wrong, the referee should be respected. But if they are the embodiment of the rules of the game, then interpretation needs to be stamped out; if the rules of the game are black and white, there can't be grey areas when it comes to the application. There has to be a concerted effort to make sure that there is consistency in how referees apply the rules. Like with Ronaldo's yellow. The review was whether it was a red card or not. Either it's a red or nothing. You can't have a halfway-house application of the rules.

There has to be a moratorium on criticism of referees. I stress that I'm not advocating that players and coaches should be allowed to pressurise them during a match - in fact, I think that any encroachment on the ref should be penalised.

But VAR is becoming mired in precisely the same situation as referees are in: that between 10 different VA referees, you're likely to get 10 different interpretations of incidents.

Why doesn't rugby suffer these issues? Why doesn't tennis? Or cricket?

We need to stop treating referees as the voice of God and managers and players should be allowed to criticise referees after matches and call attention to bad calls so as to put pressure on refereeing authorities to start sorting the problem out.

Anyway, probably the wrong forum for that kind of discussion. Hey ho! Onto Groups C & D.


This is pretty much what's been happening for the last few decades that I have been watching football. Personally I'm sick of listening to managers bitch and whine about refs, but never own up to the monumental mistakes they make, or the hundreds of stupid things their players do almost every week. If they did, moaning about refs might be more palatable.

And this is why we need VAR. Because we expect referees to not be human and make inevitable mistakes. They also do make the rules, and design rules that can be interpreted. We need VAR to take some of the pressure off them, take as much of the single, split second, human interpretation, out of the equation. Also removing accusations of bias.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
This is pretty much what's been happening for the last few decades that I have been watching football. Personally I'm sick of listening to managers bitch and whine about refs, but never own up to the monumental mistakes they make, or the hundreds of stupid things their players do almost every week. If they did, moaning about refs might be more palatable.

And this is why we need VAR. Because we expect referees to not be human and make inevitable mistakes. They also do make the rules, and design rules that can be interpreted. We need VAR to take some of the pressure off them, take as much of the single, split second, human interpretation, out of the equation. Also removing accusations of bias.
I agree. I think VAR can be very good for the game, but I think it's being mishandled.

You're right of course, refs make mistakes, they're only human. But then the VARs are also human, so will also make mistakes. That's why my view is that the weak link isn't that we have humans officiating, in whatever form that takes, but that there is a weak link somewhere else: perhaps a fundamental lack of co-ordination, or too much freedom given to referees to interpret rules as they see fit that it causes bad calls and now the same problems are happening with VAR which is making the situation worse.

That's separate from the behaviour of managers and players when it comes to decisions. I disagree with censoring managers from expressing their opinions about referees. However, I also believe that on the pitch, the referee should be respected and that making the VAR sign antics we've been seeing throughout this World Cup should be clamped down on very firmly.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Another fascinating day's football. Glad that Saudi got a deserved win. I've been impressed by there individual technical ability and today they thoroughly outplayed Egypt.

If Iran had just kept their heads a bit better, I'm convinced that there was more in that game for them, Portugal are fucking woeful. What an earth was Santos doing playing 442, dropping Moutinho and Bernard Silva for a game they had to get something out of.

Russia were a bit unlucky, it was shaping like a pretty even game until they first helped Suarez score, then scored an own goal, then their idiot got himself sent off.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I agree. I think VAR can be very good for the game, but I think it's being mishandled.

You're right of course, refs make mistakes, they're only human. But then the VARs are also human, so will also make mistakes. That's why my view is that the weak link isn't that we have humans officiating, in whatever form that takes, but that there is a weak link somewhere else: perhaps a fundamental lack of co-ordination, or too much freedom given to referees to interpret rules as they see fit that it causes bad calls and now the same problems are happening with VAR which is making the situation worse.

That's separate from the behaviour of managers and players when it comes to decisions. I disagree with censoring managers from expressing their opinions about referees. However, I also believe that on the pitch, the referee should be respected and that making the VAR sign antics we've been seeing throughout this World Cup should be clamped down on very firmly.


There's flaws in all facets of the system, the rules, their application, interpretation, and in some VAR's application of them. but VAR has only been in service a season.

VAR certainly isn't making things worse in terms of important decisions. Its vastly improving the percentages. But it needs time to evolve, it's application needs to be worked on, and some of the actual rules of football need to be better clarified.
 
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