West Ham fans caught chanting anti-semitic songs about Tottenham

[ohtottenham!]

so it follows its okay for a club to celebrate its white heritage if its okay for one to celebrate their jewish heritage. how could it be otherwise?

the impulse is the same regardless of asymmetric power. I understand the consequences arent. but the fundamental emotional impulse is the same.

it isnt. you take a minority in the west and put them in a majority situation and they are capable of discrimination, and there are plenty of examples of that, without getting into specifics that might get me in trouble. the basic impulse in the same.

instead of just hurling accusations why dont you explain the difference between celebrate being a jew and celebrating being white. you appear to be saying one is racist and one isnt. from what I can tell you can only publicly take pride in your race, ethnicity or religion if you arent the dominant culture. btw, fwiw, I feel neither pride nor shame about being white. I had no say in the matter.

You’re deconstructing everything to a human impulse, and in doing so, ignoring any historical context for the impacts of racism and discrimination, which still continue today. Slavery, genocide, colonialism, historical and ongoing racism and discrimination – they can all be ignored, or treated as vague abstractions, by those who haven’t experienced their negative, generational impact.

David was absolutely right when he used the word “privilege” in response to your post. It wasn’t an insult. It may have made you feel uncomfortable, but it’s the truth. Not sure why you considered it an “emotional” response.

You state you “feel no pride or shame in being white”, which makes total sense, because you never had to question it much. Others on this thread have lifetime experience and exposure to being considered “less than”, and we have far more personal, historical engagement and investment in the topic. I think that’s the part where you have a disconnect, and it’s an opportunity to be more open in your understanding.

 

[ohtottenham!]

i’m going to try and be polite because you are a Spurs fan but can I suggest you stop posting in this thread because at best you are coming across as an apologist for racism.

I disagree that he should stop posting however "he's coming across". It just shuts down debate. He hasn't broken any forum rules as far as I can see.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

I disagree that he should stop posting however "he's coming across". It just shuts down debate. He hasn't broken any forum rules as far as I can see.

Fair enough, not intending to "no platform" anyone, if he wants to look like an idiot that is his business and he can keep posting.

 

[rez9000]

instead of just hurling accusations why dont you explain the difference between celebrate being a jew and celebrating being white. you appear to be saying one is racist and one isnt. from what I can tell you can only publicly take pride in your race, ethnicity or religion if you arent the dominant culture. btw, fwiw, I feel neither pride nor shame about being white. I had no say in the matter.

This is actually another classic trope that's used to justify racism. The idea that 'whites' are not allowed or are viewed as wrong to celebrate their culture. Let's look at that, shall we?

It really shows the feebleness of the racist philosophy: the idea that an 'ethnicity' that makes up 86% of the population is somehow prevented from being what they are.

These are fallacies, they are lies, used to hoodwink the poor, the desperate, the uneducated - those with nothing to lose. Racists label those of us who oppose discrimination as 'poncy'. We're always described as 'university types', 'middle-class', 'Guardian readers'. What they mean is 'educated' and / or 'wealthy'. Why should this be? Because it's harder to believe that an immigrant is stealing your job when you have a well-paid one, it's harder to convince someone with an education that they're being disadvantaged by someone 'other'.

When those arguments fail to take root, other more absurd ones result, one of which is the ridiculous notion that a 'white' can't celebrate being white.

First off, being 'white' isn't actually a culture. There is no such thing as 'white' culture, just like in Africa, there is no such thing as 'black' culture - there are literally thousands of distinct, separate cultures. In Asia, there is no such thing as 'Asian' culture. So precisely what is 'white' culture? What are the unifying cultural aspects of 'whiteness'?

Secondly, the reason that there may be no celebrations of the dominant culture's culture is because it's all around them. They are dominant.

What does a cultural celebration usually involve? Dress, cuisine, history. Let's look at British culture in the UK.

Last time I looked, British cuisine was all around me. What's a traditional British dish? Full English? My local cafe is less than three minutes walk from me. Sunday roast? There are four pubs within a 10-minute walk that have a roast dinner menu every Sunday. Fish 'n' chips? Believe me, the last time I couldn't find fish 'n' chips within five minutes of me was because I was on a plane.

British 'dress'? Again, not seen anyone being prevented from wearing suits and ties, or jeans and T-shirts, or shorts and sandals.

As for British history, every bookshop and library has its own dedicated section on British history, so it's hardly being suppressed. And that's without the Internet.

So can anyone tell me, precisely how I'm being prevented from celebrating something that is with me everywhere I go every day of my life? Can anyone give me an example of a celebration of British culture being prohibited?

Another racist trope deconstructed. Next!

 

[archiewasking]

There are black music awards and black history months celebrated, which is fine. What would happen if people decided to have white music awards and white history month celebrations? Would there not be an outcry, howls of fury, accusations of racism? Yet the former excludes whites, with full social approval.

 

[riggi]

There are black music awards and black history months celebrated, which is fine. What would happen if people decided to have white music awards and white history month celebrations? Would there not be an outcry, howls of fury, accusations of racism? Yet the former excludes whites, with full social approval.

It would be shit.

 

[punkisback]

There are black music awards and black history months celebrated, which is fine. What would happen if people decided to have white music awards and white history month celebrations? Would there not be an outcry, howls of fury, accusations of racism? Yet the former excludes whites, with full social approval.

A lot of MOBO awards have been won by white people! It's not exclusivity! Its celebrating music of black origin.

 

[rez9000]

There are black music awards and black history months celebrated, which is fine. What would happen if people decided to have white music awards and white history month celebrations? Would there not be an outcry, howls of fury, accusations of racism? Yet the former excludes whites, with full social approval.

A lot of MOBO awards have been won by white people! It's not exclusivity! Its celebrating music of black origin.

Precisely - the MOBO awards are not exclusive, nor is black history month exclusive - it is merely looking at certain historical events that relate to a specific set of people or from a particular perspective. As I said, when you are the dominant culture, what need do you have to specifically celebrate it?

I've not had an actual answer as to what 'white' culture actually is. Music of white origin? Is that not celebrated? How about virtually the entire classical repertoire? Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Handel, Shostakovich, I could go on. Isn't Mozart considered and celebrated the world over as one of history's greatest musical prodigies? But yeah, there's no celebration of the music of Mozart or other 'white' people... apart from Classic FM, Radio 3, Scala Radio...

Here's one: aliens who make contact with Voyager would be forgiven for thinking that the dominant culture when it comes music is white. Of the 27 pieces of music contained on Voyager's Golden Record, three are by Bach; two are by Beethoven; one each by Mozart, Stravinsky and Anthony Holborne; and one each from Georgia, Azerbaijan and Bulgaria (all predominantly 'white' cultures). Fully 11 of the 27 pieces of music were written by 'whites'. But yeah, 'white' culture isn't being celebrated....

Important white history? What about the veneration of Churchill? Unless photos of him have been horrendously developed, I'm pretty sure Churchill was white. How about the First World War? 19,000,000 dead, the majority 'white'. That's taught in schools. Isn't that an exploration of white history? How about the Second World War & Nazi Germany? Isn't that taught in every school up and down the land? Isn't the enormous impact of Nazi Germany on the world, the estimated 80 million dead in the conflicts they sparked (and that's not even counting Nazi genocide!) the effects of which we still experience to this day, an exploration of 'white' history?

Dear, oh dear...

 

[archiewasking]

A lot of MOBO awards have been won by white people! It's not exclusivity! Its celebrating music of black origin.

Thanks for this; it was a genuine question, having never actually had the chance to watch them.

 

[BuryMeInEngland]

So can anyone tell me, precisely how I'm being prevented from celebrating something that is with me everywhere I go every day of my life? Can anyone give me an example of a celebration of British culture being prohibited?

Coming in a little late to this one and from far away, but I would think (from what I have read and been told by family and friends still in the UK) that flying the Union Flag or St. Georges Cross would be a perfect example of British/English culture being ridiculed, and in some cases if not prohibited, then actively discouraged.

It's ok if it's a Royal Wedding or similar, but to fly a Union Jack at your house apparently immediately brands you as a right wing racist thug.... even if all you have is some pride in one of the most visual and recognizable aspects of Britain.

Fly the Scottish Saltire and you are saying "I love Scotland". Fly the Union Jack and you are saying "I hate foreigners"

 

[rez9000]

Coming in a little late to this one and from far away, but I would think (from what I have read and been told by family and friends still in the UK) that flying the Union Flag or St. Georges Cross would be a perfect example of British/English culture being ridiculed, and in some cases if not prohibited, then actively discouraged.

It's ok if it's a Royal Wedding or similar, but to fly a Union Jack at your house apparently immediately brands you as a right wing racist thug.... even if all you have is some pride in one of the most visual and recognizable aspects of Britain.

Fly the Scottish Saltire and you are saying "I love Scotland". Fly the Union Jack and you are saying "I hate foreigners"

We fly the Union flag from every government building in this country.

 

[BuryMeInEngland]

We fly the Union flag from every government building in this country.

Weak response quite honestly.

Fly it or hang it outside your house and let me know what your neighbors (or in some cases your council) have to say about it.

 

[theShiznit]

Weak response quite honestly.

Fly it or hang it outside your house and let me know what your neighbors (or in some cases your council) have to say about it.

Off topic but... We'll bury in England once you remember how to spell neighbours

 

[BuryMeInEngland]

Of topic but... We'll bury in England once you remember how to spell neighbours

Thanks, it's getting closer by the day. In my defense defence it's the crappy autocorrect here.

 

[rez9000]

Weak response quite honestly.

Fly it or hang it outside your house and let me know what your neighbors (or in some cases your council) have to say about it.

You want something a little stronger? Can you tell me precisely when English culture became 'white' culture?

But, let's have something a little stronger:

You'll find that the Union flag isn't actually met with much hostility in this country. It's the St. George Cross which causes comment and it's because of the connotations that have become associated with it through the actions of ultra-nationalists. That's not to say that it's wrong to fly the flag, but that it has become associated with unsavoury behaviour.

Additionally, as a symbol of English nationalism we again return to the ludicrousness of the dominant nationality somehow feeling that it needs to assert itself. Why? It's like saying men aren't dominant in society and need protecting.

That said, maybe you should think back to the World Cup. St. George's flags were everywhere. I didn't see much opposition to it then. I saw an entire country, of every skin-colour coming together to back the country, proudly flying the flag. Even Downing Street flew the English flag during the semi-final. So tell me again how the English flag is being suppressed?

And when it comes to the St Andrews Cross and Y Ddraig Goch, there is still very strong political opposition to Scottish and Welsh nationalism, as demonstrated by the Indy Ref result, the losses of the SNP and the tiny number of Plaid Cymru seats in Parliament. And people are criticised for flying those flags.

Now, if someone wants to fly the St. George flag (or any other flag) that's entirely up to them and I won't criticise them for doing so.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

There are black music awards and black history months celebrated, which is fine. What would happen if people decided to have white music awards and white history month celebrations? Would there not be an outcry, howls of fury, accusations of racism? Yet the former excludes whites, with full social approval.

It's a straw man argument.

You just aren't looking at the underlying issue. There already are white music awards. They just aren't called that because white is normal. The country music awards, the heavy metal awards, the rock awards, the classical music awards... all white music awards without the name. Although classical music awards are starting to look more like the Asian music awards these days.

The underlying principle is what's important here, not arguing about whether there's one black HM band winning an award. Nothing is ever named "the white awards" because it doesn't need to be. White is normal. The default.

That is what people are referring to when they talk about "white privilege". Not that an individual poor white person is "privileged" by comparison with some average. Rather, that the collective of white people is privileged, invisibly to them, but visibly to everyone else, by virtue of being seen as the default-human.

Another term for this is "institutional racism".

All arguments about "white history" or the "white music awards" miss this key concept. White music awards wouldn't enrage anyone of itself, because it's a meaningless concept in reality - because of the "privilege" and "default" issues.

It would enrage people only because the only people who would do it would be making a point about white supremacy.

Incidentally the "black music awards" exclude no one and are not called that. There are called the MOBO awards - "music of black origin" - precisely so they can include people who are not black, but make music influenced by styles originated by black people. That would include people like me, who make jazz-influenced and soul/funk-influenced music.

 

[theShiznit]

Thanks, it's getting closer by the day. In my defense defence it's the crappy autocorrect here.

Yes, my android is always trying to Americanize my text... must be a setting somewhere but i can't be assed to find it.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Coming in a little late to this one and from far away, but I would think (from what I have read and been told by family and friends still in the UK) that flying the Union Flag or St. Georges Cross would be a perfect example of British/English culture being ridiculed, and in some cases if not prohibited, then actively discouraged.

It's ok if it's a Royal Wedding or similar, but to fly a Union Jack at your house apparently immediately brands you as a right wing racist thug.... even if all you have is some pride in one of the most visual and recognizable aspects of Britain.

Fly the Scottish Saltire and you are saying "I love Scotland". Fly the Union Jack and you are saying "I hate foreigners"

The crisp answer to your justifiably-complicated point is that the flag of St George is not associated with white supremacists because of any hypocrisy on the part of others. It's associated with white supremacists because it was repeatedly co-opted by Nazis.

On a level playing field, English cultural identity could be signified with a flag, like Scottish and Welsh identities. But it isn't a level playing field. It's the English who repeatedly and clumsily synonymise British identity with Little-England identity, to the extent of kinda-forgetting the Irish border issues associated with Brexit until it was too late. It's the English who didn't really think they needed a cultural identity until the Scots and Welsh started playing up, because they blithely melded Englishness and Britishness in their cultural consciousness.

I've avoided using the word "national" and used "cultural" instead. I don't like nation-states and I don't like flags as symbols of "national pride". I do like culture and caring for one's cultural identity - hence my short post about the supremacy of British cheese the other day .

 

[fortworthspur]

This is actually another classic trope that's used to justify racism. The idea that 'whites' are not allowed or are viewed as wrong to celebrate their culture. Let's look at that, shall we?

It really shows the feebleness of the racist philosophy: the idea that an 'ethnicity' that makes up 86% of the population is somehow prevented from being what they are.

These are fallacies, they are lies, used to hoodwink the poor, the desperate, the uneducated - those with nothing to lose. Racists label those of us who oppose discrimination as 'poncy'. We're always described as 'university types', 'middle-class', 'Guardian readers'. What they mean is 'educated' and / or 'wealthy'. Why should this be? Because it's harder to claim that an immigrant is stealing your job when you have a well-paid one, it's harder to convince someone with an education that they're being disadvantaged by someone 'other'.

When those arguments fail to take root, other more absurd ones result, one of which is the ridiculous notion that a 'white' can't celebrate being white.

First off, being 'white' isn't actually a culture. There is no such thing as 'white' culture, just like in Africa, there is no such thing as 'black' culture - there are literally thousands of distinct, separate cultures. In Asia, there is no such thing as 'Asian' culture. So precisely what is 'white' culture? What are the unifying cultural aspects of 'whiteness'?

Secondly, the reason that there may be no celebrations of the dominant culture's culture is because it's all around them. They are dominant.

What does a cultural celebration usually involve? Dress, cuisine, history. Let's look at British culture in the UK.

Last time I looked, British cuisine was all around me. What's a traditional British dish? Full English? My local cafe is less than three minutes walk from me. Sunday roast? There are four pubs within a 10-minute walk that have a roast dinner menu every Sunday. Fish 'n' chips? Believe me, the last time I couldn't find fish 'n' chips within five minutes of me was because I was on a plane.

British 'dress'? Again, not seen anyone being prevented from wearing suits and ties, or jeans and T-shirts, or shorts and sandals.

As for British history, every bookshop and library has its own dedicated section on British history, so it's hardly being suppressed. And that's without the Internet.

So can anyone tell me, precisely how I'm being prevented from celebrating something that is with me everywhere I go every day of my life? Can anyone give me an example of a celebration of British culture being prohibited?

Another racist trope deconstructed. Next!

you've certainly got your groupthink memorized well. but at least you acknowledged that the dominant culture is the only one not allowed to celebrate its identity per your handbook. the only thing Id tell you is just because its in your handbook its only really valid to the believers. Kinda like other works of fiction, say the Bible.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

you've certainly got your groupthink memorized well. but at least you acknowledged that the dominant culture is the only one not allowed to celebrate its identity per your handbook. the only thing Id tell you is just because its in your handbook its only really valid to the believers. Kinda like other works of fiction, say the Bible.

No one said that. Read it all again.

Celebrate your identity. Just don't call it "white". That isn't an "identity". In your culture (and ours) it's the default status. The default status is not a culture or an identity and claiming it as such is just a form of selective blindness.

Agree with you about the bible of course .