West Ham fans caught chanting anti-semitic songs about Tottenham

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#81
True, but in the cauldron of football it’s not really real, I was at a local NI match last year where a *protestant team* was playing a *nationalist team* and the nationalist team was chanting “you fenian bastard” at a player on the protestant team. It’s honestly wierd what our sport does to some people. Also drink and bravado has a massive part to play.
It‘s very real it’s just that what lies beneath the surface and can be contained by perceptions of acceptable norms can come out into the open in the environment of a football match. If you don’t inside think negatively of black people you would never make monkey noises at a football game no matter what was going on around you just like if you aren’t anti-semitic inside you would never countenance making hissing noises even if 5,000 people around you were.

The cauldron isn’t an excuse it just strips away the pretence and exposes people for what they really are as they perceive that they have a licence to behave in a way they really want to but wouldn’t otherwise do for fear of public reaction.
 

Donki

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#82
It‘s very real it’s just that what lies beneath the surface and can be contained by perceptions of acceptable norms can come out into the open in the the environment of a football match. If you don’t inside think negatively of black people you would never make monkey noises at a football game no matter what was going on around you just like if you aren’t anti-semitic inside you would never countenance making hissing noises even if 5,000 people around you were.

The cauldron isn’t an excuse it just strips away the pretence and exposes people for what they really are as they perceive that they have a licence to behave in a way they really want to but wouldn’t otherwise do for fear of public reaction.
I see what your saying, but I don’t agree, football does tent to bring out the worst in people. Most people on here will happily call Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham fans scum, illiterate bottom feeders but when a racist comment is mentioned it’s seems somehow more significant. Why is there a differential in questioning someone’s intelligence to questioning someone’s racial or religious beliefs?
 
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#83
I see what your saying, but I don’t agree, football does tent to bring out the worst in people. Most people on here will happily call Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham fans scum, illiterate bottom feeders but when a racist comment is mentioned it’s seems somehow more significant. Why is there a differential in questioning someone’s intelligence to questioning someone’s racial or religious beliefs?
Is that a serious question ?
 

Donki

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#86
To answer your question you can’t see the difference between someone saying “thick gooner” and someone saying “filthy Jew” or “black b******” ?
Do you remember what we chanted at Ade? Even when he was out player?

Also it’s not just thick, it’s incestuous, pikey, pedo? Come one mate, it’s rife in most clubs.
 
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#87
Do you remember what we chanted at Ade? Even when he was out player?
“We” ? Not me and not anyone around me at WHL or I would have called them out on it. Do I think Spurs have no racist fans ? No. Does that excuse racist fans of other clubs ? No.

You seem to be advocating a tolerance of racism on the basis that all clubs have racist fans, that is an odd logic that I don’t agree with.

Anyway don’t listen to me, ask Danny Rose what he thinks of your “lads will be lads” attitude.
 

Donki

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#88
“We” ? Not me and not anyone around me at WHL or I would have called them out on it. Do I think Spurs have no racist fans ? No. Does that excuse racist fans of other clubs ? No.

You seem to be advocating a tolerance of racism on the basis that all clubs have racist fans, that is an odd logic that I don’t agree with.

Anyway don’t listen to me, ask Danny Rose what he thinks of your “lads will be lads” attitude.
Where the fuck did I see it was ok? I don’t agree with us as fans pointing at others saying “oh look at them”, where did I get that idea? I’m saying there is very little ty can do about it. If you didn’t hear our chants about Ade you must have been deaf, I only get over to a few games a year and when he played for us I heard it loudly every game, our fans thought it was ironic, but it was the same chat that he as sung when he played for Arsenal.

Oh Danny has a point, but that’s his view, I have my own thoughts on him and it’s nothing to do with his recent comments.
 
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#89
Where the fuck did I see it was ok? I don’t agree with us as fans pointing at others saying “oh look at them”, where did I get that idea? I’m saying there is very little ty can do about it. If you didn’t hear our chants about Ade you must have been deaf, I only get over to a few games a year and when he played for us I heard it loudly every game, our fans thought it was ironic, but it was the same chat that he as sung when he played for Arsenal.

Oh Danny has a point, but that’s his view, I have my own thoughts on him and it’s nothing to do with his recent comments.
We started this little exchange with you saying that “in the context of football it’s not really real” you will have to excuse me if I interpreted that as excusing it by saying the people making the racist chants aren’t “really” racists.

If what you wanted to argue for is that it is wrong but hard to control then I dare I suggest you should explicitly say that becomes it comes across very differently to your arguments thus far.

As to the Ade chants yes I heard them, I’m not deaf but there isn’t anything I can do if it happens in another part of the stadium, it doesn’t mean I condone it because I don’t run through the stands to confront the racists chanting about elephants to an African player. Mindless morons and I’m ashamed they support the same team as me.
 

Donki

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#90
We started this little exchange with you saying that “in the context of football it’s not really real” you will have to excuse me if I interpreted that as excusing it by saying the people making the racist chants aren’t “really” racists.

If what you wanted to argue for is that it is wrong but hard to control then I dare I suggest you should explicitly say that becomes it comes across very differently to your arguments thus far.

As to the Ade chants yes I heard them, I’m not deaf but there isn’t anything I can do if it happens in another part of the stadium, it doesn’t mean I condone it because I don’t run through the stands to confront the racists chanting about elephants to an African player. Mindless morons and I’m ashamed they support the same team as me.
Mate we all happily called Wenger a pedo? West Ham fans incestual Pikeys? Do we really beli be that? Why is a racial comment worse than those 2 examples?

Honestly I didn’t mean to rile you, I just hate the *we are better than them* attitude.
 
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#91
Mate we all happily called Wenger a pedo? West Ham fans incestual Pikeys? Do we really beli be that? Why is a racial comment worse than those 2 examples?

Honestly I didn’t mean to rile you, I just hate the *we are better than them* attitude.
I’m not saying we are better than anyone. We have our morons just like other clubs have their morons.

There is a world of difference between calling Wenger a pedo which everyone knows isn’t factual and if it was it would be worthy of being locked up and racism which is factual.

I’m not some lefty Shami Chakrabarti, just ask the OP, screaming racism at all and sundry. However, when you grow up as an Orthodox Jew and from an early age you get physically attacked just because you are visibly a Jew then tolerance for anti-semitism or any other form of racism is nil. I refuse to compromise, wear my kippah everywhere and if people don’t like it too bad.
 

punkisback

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#92
Mate we all happily called Wenger a pedo? West Ham fans incestual Pikeys? Do we really beli be that? Why is a racial comment worse than those 2 examples?

Honestly I didn’t mean to rile you, I just hate the *we are better than them* attitude.
You've basically just done a Strachan. Obviously spammers are incestuous travellers and Wenger isn't a a so and so however equating being undertaking criminal acts in incest and child abuse to being of another race and religion is very wrong. It appears as if you're equating anything that isn't the same as yourself the norm; when one thing is a crime and the other is a consequence of our genetics or cultural heritage. You really need to see the difference between the two and know why it's offensive to those of us that have suffered racism.
 

Donki

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#93
You've basically just done a Strachan. Obviously spammers are incestuous travellers and Wenger isn't a a so and so however equating being undertaking criminal acts in incest and child abuse to being of another race and religion is very wrong. It appears as if you're equating anything that isn't the same as yourself the norm; when one thing is a crime and the other is a consequence of our genetics or cultural heritage. You really need to see the difference between the two and know why it's offensive to those of us that have suffered racism.
How do you know I haven’t suffered oppression? Why is racism the number one oppression? I’m honestly surprised by this on here.

Where I live, I get judged on how I say the letter H ffs.
 
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fortworthspur

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#94
read because at best you are coming across as an apologist for racism.[/QUOTE]

instead of just hurling accusations why dont you explain the difference between celebrate being a jew and celebrating being white. you appear to be saying one is racist and one isnt. from what I can tell you can only publicly take pride in your race, ethnicity or religion if you arent the dominant culture. btw, fwiw, I feel neither pride nor shame about being white. I had no say in the matter.
 

rez9000

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#95
Mate we all happily called Wenger a pedo? West Ham fans incestual Pikeys? Do we really beli be that? Why is a racial comment worse than those 2 examples?

Honestly I didn’t mean to rile you, I just hate the *we are better than them* attitude.
Because someone's 'race' is not under their control - they can't choose to be other than they are. Paedophilia is aberrant behaviour. Incest is aberrant behaviour. Being dark-skinned or having Jewish heritage isn't aberrant behaviour - it is something someone is.

Simple.

Funny - another simple explanation. Maybe the concept isn't as complex as we seem to want to make it...? :D
 
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Thread starter #96
True, but in the cauldron of football it’s not really real, I was at a local NI match last year where a *protestant team* was playing a *nationalist team* and the nationalist team was chanting “you fenian bastard” at a player on the protestant team. It’s honestly weird what our sport does to some people. Also drink and bravado has a massive part to play.
I think you just provided further evidence for my argument. Sport doesn't "do things to some people" that they don't already have it inside them to do. And "drink and bravado" is just another way of saying "peer pressure and group mentality".

You're making excuses for racism. If I were to get wasted and go out with a bunch of lads, as I might have done 20-40 years ago, and they started behaving in a racist/sexist way, I would either confront it, mock it or make myself scarce, depending on how much power/influence/safety I felt I had in the situation. There's no fucking way I would join in with it, however much I'd had to drink and however much I was part of the group.

In fact, I'm using the wrong tense. I've been in those situations and I didn't join in. I usually used mockery, because confrontation is liable to get you thumped and running away isn't an acceptable option.
 
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Thread starter #97
Do you remember what we chanted at Ade? Even when he was out player?

Also it’s not just thick, it’s incestuous, pikey, pedo? Come one mate, it’s rife in most clubs.
What YOU chanted at Ade. Not I. That's my point. I don't join in with the Wenger-is-a-paedophile chants, nor the stand-up-if-you-hate-Arsenal chants. None of them. Ever. Not even the RSol chants, despite what he did.

I get excited. I drink beer. I get carried away. But I never shout or sing anything racist. It's a basic standard of behaviour that I follow and that I demand from 100% of other people, no exceptions.

IDGAF if it's "rife". It needs to be destroyed. If that means half a generation of fans being banned from every stadium in the country, that's a proper set of priorities.
 

Donki

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#98
I think you just provided further evidence for my argument. Sport doesn't "do things to some people" that they don't already have it inside them to do. And "drink and bravado" is just another way of saying "peer pressure and group mentality".

You're making excuses for racism. If I were to get wasted and go out with a bunch of lads, as I might have done 20-40 years ago, and they started behaving in a racist/sexist way, I would either confront it, mock it or make myself scarce, depending on how much power/influence/safety I felt I had in the situation. There's no fucking way I would join in with it, however much I'd had to drink and however much I was part of the group.

In fact, I'm using the wrong tense. I've been in those situations and I didn't join in. I usually used mockery, because confrontation is liable to get you thumped and running away isn't an acceptable option.
I’m not trying to come across as making excuses for racism or bigatory. I’m just simply trying to discuss the matter. I do think tribalism is sport has a part to play in that, it’s not an excuse at all. I’ve seen plenty of people on here saying things like I hate all fans of a certain football club they are all such and such, it makes no sense to judge a person on what football team they support.
 

Donki

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#99
What YOU chanted at Ade. Not I. That's my point. I don't join in with the Wenger-is-a-paedophile chants, nor the stand-up-if-you-hate-Arsenal chants. None of them. Ever. Not even the RSol chants, despite what he did.

I get excited. I drink beer. I get carried away. But I never shout or sing anything racist. It's a basic standard of behaviour that I follow and that I demand from 100% of other people, no exceptions.

IDGAF if it's "rife". It needs to be destroyed. If that means half a generation of fans being banned from every stadium in the country, that's a proper set of priorities.
When I said we I meant the supporters of our club not myself personally, there was no need for that cheap shot. The times I’ve been at the Lane was with my wife, and I heard our fans chat it, I didn’t join in. It’s why discussion about this sort of thing is difficult, your accusing me of something I haven’t done, so politely wind your neck in.
 

rez9000

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I’m not trying to come across as making excuses for racism or bigatory. I’m just simply trying to discuss the matter. I do think tribalism is sport has a part to play in that, it’s not an excuse at all. I’ve seen plenty of people on here saying things like I hate all fans of a certain football club they are all such and such, it makes no sense to judge a person on what football team they support.
What YOU chanted at Ade. Not I. That's my point. I don't join in with the Wenger-is-a-paedophile chants, nor the stand-up-if-you-hate-Arsenal chants. None of them. Ever. Not even the RSol chants, despite what he did.

I get excited. I drink beer. I get carried away. But I never shout or sing anything racist. It's a basic standard of behaviour that I follow and that I demand from 100% of other people, no exceptions.

IDGAF if it's "rife". It needs to be destroyed. If that means half a generation of fans being banned from every stadium in the country, that's a proper set of priorities.
You both have valid points and you both have weaknesses in your arguments

David’s right, Donk: racist behaviour is racist behaviour and a non-normal environment doesn’t excuse aberrant behaviour. Although you may not be seeking to excuse that behaviour, what you’ve said can be construed as doing so.

David, although you may expect upright behaviour from those who you associate with, the expectation is an unrealistic one. People are flawed - we all are. Although I’d heartily commend you for having the strength of character to stand up to discrimination whenever you’ve been confronted with it, most people won’t, for a variety of reasons.

It’s important to recognise that group environments can lead to aberrant behaviours. The Stanford Prison Experiment is a good example of that. Without wishing to escalate too far, I’d also cite the ordinary German living under Nazi rule. The former is a good example of people actively engaging in aberrant behaviour which they wouldn’t otherwise, the latter an example of people who know what is happening but who don’t confront it.

Neither of those examples excuse the behaviour, but do explain it. Someone who engages in racist behaviour in a group environment may not be inherently racist or even have a latent racist tendency within them. Again, will stress that their behaviour is not excusable. But it’s their behaviour that should be condemned, not the person.

At the same time, anyone finding themselves in a situation where their group is engaging in discriminatory behaviour does have a responsibility to, at the very least, distant themselves from it. Not doing so enables further discrimination.
 
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