West Ham fans caught chanting anti-semitic songs about Tottenham

rez9000

Worried about Tromboning
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
7,578
#61
I wish it was as simple @rez9000 as the ‘undifference’ between us. I think from a genetic perspective it’s clear we are so alike. However it’s the cultural, language and religious barriers that also play such a big part - they speak different, eat different, live different etc and the tribal nature of human society makes us suspicious of these differences. I agree with your ‘in principle’ argument about genetic similarity but I think it’s much more complex then that.
Hey flash. I'm horribly sleep-deprived right now, so can't answer your point just yet (I can just about cover sausages and pizza right now!), but will get back to you once I've had some sleep.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
12,429
Thread starter #62
But what if someone is offended though? Why do we get to pick and choose what may offend someone else?
I've been trying to avoid the word "offended" recently. It's become too loaded and it connotes an unjustified flounce.

I find the word "oppressed" much more useful. It removes the implication that the decision to feel bad has been taken by the person on the receiving end and puts the responsibility where it belongs, on the perpetrator.

It's especially pointed when we get privileged white/wealthy/male/etc. people getting all "offended" by plain speaking and frankness, and bleating on about imagined "personal insults" and "bullying". They're certainly "offended". But I don't think they're being "oppressed".
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
12,429
Thread starter #63
...Recognising that the differences are miniscule is what will make them meaningless...
I'm enjoying the discussion. I always sneakingly take a bit of credit when something I've posted starts an adult debate.

"MinUscule".

Not a lot of people know that, but it's true. Same root as "minute", as in "very small", rather than "miniature".
 

rez9000

Worried about Tromboning
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
7,578
#64
I'm enjoying the discussion. I always sneakingly take a bit of credit when something I've posted starts an adult debate.

"MinUscule".

Not a lot of people know that, but it's true. Same root as "minute", as in "very small", rather than "miniature".
I know. I always make that mistake. It's like 'form' and 'from' with me, it keeps happening. :banghead:
 

Coyboy

The Double of 1961 is still The Double
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Messages
14,734
#65
But what if someone is offended though? Why do we get to pick and choose what may offend someone else?
Then be offended. Nothing happens.

In reality for the purposes of criminal law though, a court or a jury decides whether it would be a public order offence- which is why it's fair enough that some of our fans got arrested (I am not sure if prosecuted/convicted) for that horrific Sol Campbell song and that it was ridiculous that people who just chant "Yiddo" were arrested and right that they were not prosecuted/convicted.
 

TheSpillage

Active Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
368
#70
I'm absolutely loving this, old chap - deep conversations are a wondrous thing to me! :)

And, to be honest, we're not that far off from each other. And certainly in any fight against discrimination, we face the same way. Yes, for sure, there are specific groupings of people who are sorely disadvantaged and who do need assistance, and what they have in common is their skin colour. And likewise, I agree that the history of European colonialism is a bloody and utterly inhumane one.

I think I'm driven by the vision of what the ultimate goal is, while others focus on what is in front of them. Neither is better than the other, I hasten to add - just a difference in focus. (y)
I’m sort of tempted to make a joke about you two being gay - but I sense this isn’t the thread.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
6,180
#71
No, that's a false assertion. There are nine clearly defined protected characteristics:
  • age
  • disability status
  • marital status
  • pregnancy status
  • gender
  • gender assignment
  • race
  • religious belief
  • sexual orientation
Let me ask you this: what is the necessity for any of the above to be mentioned in a football chant?

Let me also ask you this:

Is an older person less of a human being than a young person? Is a woman less than a man? Someone with a disability less than one without? A Muslim less than a Christian? A gay less then a straightie, etc. etc.?

Anyone who says 'yes' to any of those questions, discriminates. And it's wrong. Because it's illogical. We are so 'undifferent' to each other that highlighting these miniscule differences is the height of idiocy and is pointless. Why would anyone want to? We're all born, we live, we die. Will it really matter on our death beds that we made sure a black person didn't make as much money as a white person? Or that a woman was prevented from voting? Or that a gay person was prevented from marrying the person she loves?

That's all discrimination. If you're against that, then you need to be against the espousing of it, even if it's in jest. Because that normalises and suggests acceptability. That enables the actions of those who will cause harm and perpetuates a cycle of abuse and discrimination.

No. That's a classic trope in the racist playbook and it's complete balls.

My cultural heritage is Iranian. But I was born and raised in the UK. I take great pride in the achievements of the Iranian people. I likewise take pride in the achievements of the British people. But if I take pride in an Iranian achievement, that doesn't mean I think the British are stupid for not achieving it. That would be attacking myself. That's like saying that if you come first in a foot race, everyone else is a lesser human being.

I'm overweight. If I was in a foot race with pretty much anyone, I'd probably lose. But I have an aptitude for logic and mathematics. So, someone who would beat me in a race, I'd probably beat in some mental task. That doesn't make either of us better than the other. And at the same time, there will be those who I could beat in a race. And those who could beat me in a mental task. Again, that doesn't make me or them better. And most noodle-bakingly of all, there'll be those who can beat me in a foot race and in a mental task. And vice versa. Again, that doesn't make either of us inherently better.

There is no measure of 'betterness'. A human being has so many characteristics that even if it were possible to quantify them (which there isn't) there would simply be too many variables to be able to draw any kind of conclusion. Ultimately, no human is better than another. And certainly not because of their sex, race, religious belief or anything else.

If you take that as your starting point, then any kind of discrimination is illogical.
so it follows its okay for a club to celebrate its white heritage if its okay for one to celebrate their jewish heritage. how could it be otherwise?
 

Saoirse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Messages
3,066
#75
so it follows its okay for a club to celebrate its white heritage if its okay for one to celebrate their jewish heritage. how could it be otherwise?
When white people have been the victims of a genocide wiping out a huge percentage of their population, and then have to watch as people celebrate that, joke about it, even advocate for it to happen again, perhaps it'll be okay. As it stands, far from being the victims, white people were the perpetrators of that genocide alongside countless others. Tottenham celebrate our Jewish heritage because we've been subject to the anti-Semitic abuse that all Jews suffer in common - and they obviously have their faith and culture in common too. The only thing white people have in common is a very long history of power, colonisation and racism we continue to benefit from today. If you can't see that celebrating that history is very different to celebrating a faith and standing up to discrimination, then you're beyond help.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
6,180
#76
When white people have been the victims of a genocide wiping out a huge percentage of their population, and then have to watch as people celebrate that, joke about it, even advocate for it to happen again, perhaps it'll be okay. As it stands, far from being the victims, white people were the perpetrators of that genocide alongside countless others. Tottenham celebrate our Jewish heritage because we've been subject to the anti-Semitic abuse that all Jews suffer in common - and they obviously have their faith and culture in common too. The only thing white people have in common is a very long history of power, colonisation and racism we continue to benefit from today. If you can't see that celebrating that history is very different to celebrating a faith and standing up to discrimination, then you're beyond help.
it isnt. you take a minority in the west and put them in a majority situation and they are capable of discrimination, and there are plenty of examples of that, without getting into specifics that might get me in trouble. the basic impulse in the same.
 

Donki

Has a "Massive Member" Member
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
10,198
#77
Every club has wanker fans, let’s not forget the banana against the scum. Certainly some have more than others but I don’t honestly think most are as bigoted as they are made out to be it’s just the tribalism of football, some fans hate their direct rivals so much they will literally do anything to project this hate.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
12,429
Thread starter #78
Every club has wanker fans, let’s not forget the banana against the scum. Certainly some have more than others but I don’t honestly think most are as bigoted as they are made out to be it’s just the tribalism of football, some fans hate their direct rivals so much they will literally do anything to project this hate.
Partly, I agree. But bigoted is as bigoted does. If you succumb to peer pressure and group mentality and chant racist slogans about other clubs, hey presto, you're a racist.

The whole trope of "he's really a nice guy, he's not a racist really, he just gets carried away" is basically bullshit. If you chant racist slogans, make monkey noises or gas chamber noises or throw banana skins, you're being racist.

Racism is about what you do. Not what you think you feel inside.
 
Last edited:

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
6,365
#79
it isnt. you take a minority in the west and put them in a majority situation and they are capable of discrimination, and there are plenty of examples of that, without getting into specifics that might get me in trouble. the basic impulse in the same.
i’m going to try and be polite because you are a Spurs fan but can I suggest you stop posting in this thread because at best you are coming across as an apologist for racism.
 

Donki

Has a "Massive Member" Member
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
10,198
#80
Partly, I agree. But bigoted is as bigoted does. If you succumb to peer pressure and group mentality and chat racist slogans about other clubs, hey presto, you're a racist.

The whole trope of "he's really a nice guy, he's not a racist really, he just gets carried away" is basically bullshit. If you chant racist slogans, make monkey noises or gas chamber noises or throw banana skins, you're being racist.

Racism is about what you do. Not what you think you feel inside.
True, but in the cauldron of football it’s not really real, I was at a local NI match last year where a *protestant team* was playing a *nationalist team* and the nationalist team was chanting “you fenian bastard” at a player on the protestant team. It’s honestly wierd what our sport does to some people. Also drink and bravado has a massive part to play.
 
Top