The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

eddiebailey

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The only player I can think of who was actually damaged by a loan was Phil Ifil, who came back from Millwall treating the ball like it was a live grenade. The likes of Livermore, Townsend and Mason had plenty of shit loans but none that seemed to do lasting harm. In part I think that is because these days we tend not to just cut players loose when they go out on loan.

If Pochettino does feel that way about the football League, he is not alone. I recall Sherwood lamenting the difficulty of finding loans for lads at clubs that actually played football. But somehow in the past we found ways to make it work.
 

loaderspurs

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I'm actually becoming hopeful/slightly optimistic about our approach to the loan system.

I agree the use of loans has been pretty shambolic under Poche, and it has cost a lot of our prospects a lot of development time. It's all well and good being coached how we want them to play, but players need to be playing matches (u23 games don't count). We've heard countless times from Kane, Townsend, Mason etc. how these experiences playing with men taught them so much, and it's so obvious that those who get first team exposure early benefit from it (exhibit 1 - Dele Alli). Not only that, the players that don't play matches often move backwards (TOB, KWP, Winks almost did, Onomah). We even have an example of what could have been when comparing KWP with Wan-Bissaka.

THAT SAID, I also completely understand Poche's reasoning of why he doesn't ship them all out on loan to lower league sides a la Harry R, as he wants his players to play matches, but play and train in the right way. The perfect example of why he wants this done is to see how a poor loan has effected Onomah. Went to a team to get first experience, but played in a team/under a manager that plays a completely different style to us and is not suited to his strengths.

The reason that I am becoming slightly more optimistic (probably deluding myself) is that we appear to be looking further afield, looking for better fits. If our youth recruitment/development strategy is to focus on the technically able, and not physically developed, then it makes sense to send them on loan to leagues/clubs that play technical games. The loans of Shashoua and Georgiou to Spain make me hopeful that we will see more of this going forward. While we all would love our players to go on loan to the Bundesliga as we see with other top 6 youth, if that's not happening there is no reason we should be turning our noses up at lower quality, but still technically focused leagues, like Ligue 1, Segunda B, Serie B, etc.

In an ideal world I'd love to see the club bring someone in who's sole job is to find suitable loans for the players that need to take the step up from youth football, but aren't ready for first team football with Spurs yet, and then monitor those players while on loan. How much better would it be for us if we'd managed to get someone like Roles at an Eredivisie club or even somewhere like the Belgian pro league. Yes it's not glamorous, yes its not a top tier league, but exposure to men's football, regular large crowds and the pressure that comes with playing for a first team would develop these players like no amount of training/youth games could. Plus, good performances in a first team no matter what league are much harder to ignore than smashing youth games week in week out. Look at Amos, a middle of the pack steady eddie, yet a very good 6 month loan at league 2 Stevenage shot him to the top of the pile.

Just my Monday thoughts anyway...sorry if rambling a touch.
 
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I'm actually becoming hopeful/slightly optimistic about our approach to the loan system.

I agree the use of loans has been pretty shambolic under Poche, and it has cost a lot of our prospects a lot of development time. It's all well and good being coached how we want them to play, but players need to be playing matches (u23 games don't count). We've heard countless times from Kane, Townsend, Mason etc. how these experiences playing with men taught them so much, and it's so obvious that those who get first team exposure early benefit from it (exhibit 1 - Dele Alli). Not only that, the players that don't play matches often move backwards (TOB, KWP, Winks almost did, Onomah). We even have an example of what could have been when comparing KWP with Wan-Bissaka.

THAT SAID, I also completely understand Poche's reasoning of why he doesn't ship them all out on loan to lower league sides a la Harry R, as he wants his players to play matches, but play and train in the right way. The perfect example of why he wants this done is to see how a poor loan has effected Onomah. Went to a team to get first experience, but played in a team/under a manager that plays a completely different style to us and is not suited to his strengths.

The reason that I am becoming slightly more optimistic (probably deluding myself) is that we appear to be looking further afield, looking for better fits. If our youth recruitment/development strategy is to focus on the technically able, and not physically developed, then it makes sense to send them on loan to leagues/clubs that play technical games. The loans of Shashoua and Georgiou to Spain make me hopeful that we will see more of this going forward. While we all would love our players to go on loan to the Bundesliga as we see with other top 6 youth, if that's not happening there is no reason we should be turning our noses up at lower quality, but still technically focused leagues, like Ligue 1, Segunda B, Serie B, etc.

In an ideal world I'd love to see the club bring someone in who's sole job is to find suitable loans for the players that need to take the step up from youth football, but aren't ready for first team football with Spurs yet, and then monitor those players while on loan. How much better would it be for us if we'd managed to get someone like Roles at an Eredivisie club or even somewhere like the Belgian pro league. Yes it's not glamorous, yes its not a top tier league, but exposure to men's football, regular large crowds and the pressure that comes with playing for a first team would develop these players like no amount of training/youth games could. Plus, good performances in a first team no matter what league are much harder to ignore than smashing youth games week in week out. Look at Amos, a middle of the pack steady eddie, yet a very good 6 month loan at league 2 Stevenage shot him to the top of the pile.

Just my Monday thoughts anyway...sorry if rambling a touch.
Is it not John McDermott’s job to oversee potential loans. A year or two back when Man Utd were rumoured to be after him, his job was upgraded to cover under 23 down. Bit like a technical director but only focusing on youth, while Steve Hitchen does recruitment for the first team.
He is a pal of the Portsmouth manager which would be a possibility. Or is the problem that we want some guarantee of playing or certain amount of wages paid.
 

Spurzinho

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Been reading good reviews on Jack Roles
How does Roles compare to Skipp?
Very different players. Roles is a little bit like Dele but without the pace. Good finisher, excellent awareness in the final third, bit spindly and lightweight, because of where he plays you don't see many 30 yard hollywood passes but he's very good in tight spaces and can knock balls round corners. Does he have the zip you need to play in the premier league? I'm not convinced. I'd love him to make it because he's a very tidy player with a great ability in front of goal but I think he's a bit flat footed for the highest level. He doesn't have the deceptive acceleration of an Ericksen for example.
 

ComfortablyNumb

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Very different players. Roles is a little bit like Dele but without the pace. Good finisher, excellent awareness in the final third, bit spindly and lightweight, because of where he plays you don't see many 30 yard hollywood passes but he's very good in tight spaces and can knock balls round corners. Does he have the zip you need to play in the premier league? I'm not convinced. I'd love him to make it because he's a very tidy player with a great ability in front of goal but I think he's a bit flat footed for the highest level. He doesn't have the deceptive acceleration of an Ericksen for example.
Sounds like Mata...

Videos I’ve seen (I know...) suggest he’s a bit quicker than you suggest, but I’ll defer to your knowledge. He does look a lot like Dele in style.
 

bceej

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Very different players. Roles is a little bit like Dele but without the pace. Good finisher, excellent awareness in the final third, bit spindly and lightweight, because of where he plays you don't see many 30 yard hollywood passes but he's very good in tight spaces and can knock balls round corners. Does he have the zip you need to play in the premier league? I'm not convinced. I'd love him to make it because he's a very tidy player with a great ability in front of goal but I think he's a bit flat footed for the highest level. He doesn't have the deceptive acceleration of an Ericksen for example.
Suppose he’s at the age he needs to start working on his conditioning. Really hope he gets a contract.
 

chinaman

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Very different players. Roles is a little bit like Dele but without the pace. Good finisher, excellent awareness in the final third, bit spindly and lightweight, because of where he plays you don't see many 30 yard hollywood passes but he's very good in tight spaces and can knock balls round corners. Does he have the zip you need to play in the premier league? I'm not convinced. I'd love him to make it because he's a very tidy player with a great ability in front of goal but I think he's a bit flat footed for the highest level. He doesn't have the deceptive acceleration of an Ericksen for example.

The Cypriot Siggudson?
 

IGSpur

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Loathed to dive in here given your knowledge but Carroll was given the chances that most others would want. He doesn’t fit your narrative.

Also I know There’s the potential for a ten paragraph answer.
I partially agree as I've said. He like many others were given so many more opportunities than this current group, but I definitely believe his development was handled poorly. To save yours and my time, I've found one post (I'm sure I've made a few others alluding to it) briefly outlining why I think that's the case here.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...read-–-2016-2017.125314/page-197#post-5424376
 

Cochraam

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I really appreciate the conversation here on the academy, loan system, and wider English player development system, especially as so many here have followed youth football so much longer than I have. I must admit when it became clear that Poch would take a different approach to the loan system, I was initially very enthusiastic that he was going to keep more academy prospects at the club, training with the first team. Having observed that so many of the first team players and players acquired through transfers took 1+ years to understand Poch's system, I thought keeping our top academy talents at the club would be a way to fast track them into the 1st team. However, it seems clear this is not how it is working for the majority of young players, and a year of training with the first team feels like a year of stagnation.

I have some hope for the future that maybe Poch and the club are changing the way they operate with youth. We seem to be using loans a bit more, although they feel somewhat haphazard and I worry we may be making them based on loan fees/wages covered rather than with an eye toward player development. But, I'm hopeful that Poch's seemingly new insistence on using the transfer market only for established players will open up more opportunity for academy players to incorporate with the first team. It seems like a big summer in terms of whether academy and young players can ever expect a decent chance, since we might see a lot of outgoing players. I'm not terribly hopeful but there are scenarios where Foyth and KWP are given real pathways to significant first team roles and that at least a couple of Skipp, Amos, Onomah, Edwards, and CCV are given meaningful squad roles if not more.
 

eddiebailey

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I really appreciate the conversation here on the academy, loan system, and wider English player development system, especially as so many here have followed youth football so much longer than I have. I must admit when it became clear that Poch would take a different approach to the loan system, I was initially very enthusiastic that he was going to keep more academy prospects at the club, training with the first team. Having observed that so many of the first team players and players acquired through transfers took 1+ years to understand Poch's system, I thought keeping our top academy talents at the club would be a way to fast track them into the 1st team. However, it seems clear this is not how it is working for the majority of young players, and a year of training with the first team feels like a year of stagnation.

I have some hope for the future that maybe Poch and the club are changing the way they operate with youth. We seem to be using loans a bit more, although they feel somewhat haphazard ... But, I'm hopeful that Poch's seemingly new insistence on using the transfer market only for established players ...
I get the impression that in some cases lads are organising loans for themselves. And against Poch’s wishes.

And if Poch had taken this line on established players in the past we would not have Dele, Dier, Foyth.

I can’t see Levy paying through the nose for players, and if Poch won’t sanction purchases that aren’t the finished article and won’t trust our own homegrown youngsters something is going to have to give. I fear that the next window things could come to a head.
 
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The only player I can think of who was actually damaged by a loan was Phil Ifil, who came back from Millwall treating the ball like it was a live grenade. The likes of Livermore, Townsend and Mason had plenty of shit loans but none that seemed to do lasting harm. In part I think that is because these days we tend not to just cut players loose when they go out on loan.

If Pochettino does feel that way about the football League, he is not alone. I recall Sherwood lamenting the difficulty of finding loans for lads at clubs that actually played football. But somehow in the past we found ways to make it work.
I can think of Perrett loan at Swindon which was a disaster - Pritchard had at least one which was a nonsense and Nathan Oduwa was destroyed by his time at Rangers and I am certain someone went to Watford and got sent back
 

edson

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I can think of Perrett loan at Swindon which was a disaster - Pritchard had at least one which was a nonsense and Nathan Oduwa was destroyed by his time at Rangers and I am certain someone went to Watford and got sent back
Townsend had a Loan cancelled early at Watford.
 

eddiebailey

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I can think of Perrett loan at Swindon which was a disaster - Pritchard had at least one which was a nonsense and Nathan Oduwa was destroyed by his time at Rangers and I am certain someone went to Watford and got sent back
The premature end of Parrett's spell at Swindon seems to have been for reasons off the pitch, but most of our lads who went there did well, it was precisely the sort of footballing team we should be farming loanees out to. I can however think of a great many bad loans. Mason at L’Orient being probably the most pointless. And Kane had a stinker at Leicester. But that’s not the point. Pritchard and Mason went onto good careers, and as for Kane! Parrett has not done so bad either and I’m not convinced Oduwa would have done any better if he hadn’t gone to Rangers, though he might have been spared some scar tissue from being hacked by opposing defenders.

Loans might be disappointing but on the whole they don’t break players. And players who go out on loan are not going to come back ruined having forgotten everything they’ve learned at Spurs. That’s no reason not to send them out on loan. Even a bad loan can be a learning experience and a good one helps them to grow as a person and a player.
 
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U23 team line up.

Austin
Hinds
Cirkin
Marsh
Tanganga
Eyoma
Maghoma
TOB
Tracey
Roles
Bennett

Subs
Duncan
Glover
Shashoua
BLF
Dinzeyi
No Parrott. Disappointing but interesting all the same.

Anyone know if the kids injured at the moment or has he been mixing it with the seniors and earned a little time off with the big boys?
 

edson

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No Parrott. Disappointing but interesting all the same.

Anyone know if the kids injured at the moment or has he been mixing it with the seniors and earned a little time off with the big boys?
Not his time yet as good as he might be he is not ready for the big boys yet.

Roles should be with the big boys and I do hope he is not playing u23 football next year.
 
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