The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

IGSpur

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Not even sure it's that...

You look at Rashford, Odoi, Lookman, Sancho, Sane etc and, basically, they're all freaks - ridiculous speed, solid builds, great technique, balance and decent composure.

Not sure we've had a single attacking youth player who fits all those elements despite some looking promising - and all our lads can probably knock on Kane's door to ask what they need to work on in the gym, as well as on the pitch.

Even Edwards still isn't explosive enough and still doesn't fight hard enough, despite his great balance and technique - and, I'm sure, people have been pointing out that he needed to work harder on the physical side.

He could still be great, but guys like Silva are small and have a massive fire in their belly etc. That fire is just as important as the vision.

As for Onomah, I'm a bit baffled by that one. Was absolutely certain he'd make it. Hope he stil does. Maybe that gym work and yardage is missing. Not sure.
I was tempted to mention the physical side. But I'm speaking in terms of Poch specifically here. If you are quick/strong etc it will help your case 10 fold and as you say is the reason, those players above have been able to adapt so well whereas Foden, Gomes and Edwards would need a more careful way of developing.

But and I know everyone will look to the Slovenian league or whatever, but Oduwa, was psychically able to play for the first team. He was quick and strong, and skillful and was more than good enough to play Europa League football. I think he did excellently in preseason linking up with Danny Rose before being sent to Rangers. With the benefit of hindsight it's could have been the lack of trust in the defensive side of his game. That is also maybe why Pritchard wasn't kept here after his great loan from Swindon. Who knows what would have happened if he got injured but I'm inclined to believe he would have struggled regardless.

Re: the fire in the belly. As I said previously, Poch and the coaches will have known if he has the fire in his belly over the course of assessing him for 10 years. If they believed that nothing could ever be done about it, they would have just sacked him off no? So if they kept him would have thought despite not having the fire in the belly he still had the ability to be top quality. So I would ask what did they do differently to try and spark that fire. Did they give incentives, did they make him feel he stood a chance if. If they club doesn't treat anyone differently and doesn't intend to bring that fire, again, why keep him on, especially if he is a bit of a problem child. So that leads me to believe the club/Poch believes they could have got it out of him, but ended up unsuccessful
 
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I assume you misquoted my post, but the 'they have to do something elsewhere otherwise they were never good enough for us' doesn't work with me.

You are implying that their destiny and path was already set, and nothing could have been done to avoid that path. If that was the case, the club, managers, England coaches would not have invested so much time into those two players if they didn't think they had the potential to be top class. Unless all of those people can't judge a player and 'as it appears' they were never good enough for Spurs first team all along, then maybe it's fair to ask what they saw in those two players and why were the club unable to get it out of them?

For those who will then say the players lack the mentality. Consider that the coaches have worked with those 2 players since they were 8 years old. They know their mentality, and every 2 years continued to offer them contracts until u16 level. They still know what their mentality is like and continue to invest time and money into them as do England. In England's case their judgement was vindicated. Now they get to17 and Poch is workign with them. Poch can tell exactly what their personalites are like and would have been told by the coaches. And yet they were offered contracts, in Onomah's case 2. Poch openly praised both of their abiltiy publicly, and knew if they had 'attitude problems' or were 'lazy' but still invested more money into them. So what did the club do to ensure they got they tapped into their potential? They knew what they were working with, did they try to do anything different? Or did they just expect the same mentality from them, as someone who has grafted his whole career being a dog body in CM. They will of couse have different mentalities. At what point do we look at the club/maanger and question their judgement on the ability of both or question how they were managed and developed? We can't say it's the players fault all along otherwise I'd say the club have been hoodwinked by both these players into paying them loads of money.

Was their path determined at 17? At 17 did we think Onomah's limit was Sheffield Wednesday. Of course not, so I don't buy the argument he was never good enough, and look at where he is now as evidence of this.

Even looking at Hudson-Odoi, Chelsea have had so many talente dplayers where at 17 everyone is excited. Like McEAchran, Chelsea do as they do, suck at developing players and McEachran ends up at Brentford and was never good enough. same with RLC, DaSilva, now we have Mount and CHO. Mount out played Kluivert in Eredivise, and was rewarded with a loan to Derby while Kluivert went Roma. Mount could easily not play for the frist team and end up a Sheffield United player in a years time and not be good enough. Everyone sees Bayern come after CHO and now CHelsea fans think he might be good enough, they think he should stay. If he stays we all know what will happen, and how it will end up. but the story will end up being he was never good enough. I read the CHelsea forum and they say the exact same thing. How many players have Chelsea regretted letting go. AN academy that has won 6 FAYCs and 2 UYLs, as none have pulled up trees due to being stifled according to that logic not one player, not one, could have been good enough to play for their first team. That is why I'm all for our best players getting out, ours and other clubs. As we know the path laid out for them. I'm pleased that the u17 age group appear to be getting chances, but everyone raves about that age group. Remember Onomah's age group were basically as good, they won their Euros but the WC was not their year so we don't know if they could have done the double. He was a mainstay in that age group, they had hype and now where is he? Would never have happened in another country.
There is a raft of players that played underage for England that never pushed on. So I don't understand why u continue to quote that. I'm not saying Onomah and Edwards were and are not talented. So if it's correct that we did not develop them properly there is no reason if they have the technical and mental strength that they should not show their worth somewhere else. To date they have not done so. I don't think poch can be blamed for that. If they are good enough they will make it
 

Cornpattbuck

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I was tempted to mention the physical side. But I'm speaking in terms of Poch specifically here. If you are quick/strong etc it will help your case 10 fold and as you say is the reason, those players above have been able to adapt so well whereas Foden, Gomes and Edwards would need a more careful way of developing.

But and I know everyone will look to the Slovenian league or whatever, but Oduwa, was psychically able to play for the first team. He was quick and strong, and skillful and was more than good enough to play Europa League football. I think he did excellently in preseason linking up with Danny Rose before being sent to Rangers. With the benefit of hindsight it's could have been the lack of trust in the defensive side of his game. That is also maybe why Pritchard wasn't kept here after his great loan from Swindon. Who knows what would have happened if he got injured but I'm inclined to believe he would have struggled regardless.

Re: the fire in the belly. As I said previously, Poch and the coaches will have known if he has the fire in his belly over the course of assessing him for 10 years. If they believed that nothing could ever be done about it, they would have just sacked him off no? So if they kept him would have thought despite not having the fire in the belly he still had the ability to be top quality. So I would ask what did they do differently to try and spark that fire. Did they give incentives, did they make him feel he stood a chance if. If they club doesn't treat anyone differently and doesn't intend to bring that fire, again, why keep him on, especially if he is a bit of a problem child. So that leads me to believe the club/Poch believes they could have got it out of him, but ended up unsuccessful
Physical isn't just strength or speed though, is it?

It's the ability to cover a lot of ground and do it game after game after game after game and stay mentally strong.

It's conditioning. I'm wondering if that's where a couple of our young talents have, so far, fallen short, where as Winks and Skipp have excelled. Onomah and Edwards can still do it but they NEED to graft off the pitch.

Great physical conditioning helps all game concentration and coupled with great technique it's absolutely essential now. I think it's underestimated.

Funnily enough it's probably the main reason that, say, Milner has been a much better player since he passed 30. He's clearly worked on it.
 

IGSpur

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There is a raft of players that played underage for England that never pushed on. So I don't understand why u continue to quote that.
Because this is my point. English clubs have failed to bring through loads of players despite having incredible talent. You believe they were never good enough, I believe they weren't developed properly. That is why I mention it, as it is relevant to us also.People now believe this year group are different but it's because they are now leaving and looking for opportunity abroad. Look at Lookman, he had no chances under Big Sam, went Bundelsiga for half a season. Did excellently. Came back to Everton and still get a chance. This therefore means he is not good enough? So was that Bundesliga stuff an anomaly. He is proof that of the ridiculous nature of the Premier league. Before he went he wasn't good enough, if someone would suggest he should have gone abroad, you'd get they can't all go abroad. He went abroad, did well and proved himself, and still isn't playing here. If he stayed there where would he be? So basically, an academy player not getting opportunity at Premier League is not an indication of his actual ability in my eyes.

if they have the technical and mental strength that they should not show their worth somewhere else.
There are many reasons for this. Different styles. Being raised to play a certain style, and then playing with players and a manager that doesn't play in a style you are used to. Stagnation and a lack of interest due to the stagnation and feeling of hopelessness, as Vieira alluded to. The lack of being able to set roots in a club and properly develop. When a player comes here we give them at least a season before we judge them. Heck we gave SIssoko two. Or we claim they haven't had a preseason. We hang onto a player until end of August send them to a club that plays completely different football. They may struggle, get scapegoated, even if they do well, they come back go somewhere else, completely different style, never give them actually opportunities alongside quality players or have the trust from the manager. Then release them at 23, to go to another random club playing with poor players and go 'see I told you they were never good enough'.

If they are good enough they will make it
I just flat out disagree with this. But that's my opinion, and I think people are starting to realise that one of those cliches with no real substance behind it. If someone comes through by pure fortune you can say they were always good enough, but you can never prove that someone would have been good enough had they got the chance so people have continued to use it.

I think after the last 5 years people are starting to realise how much talent has been wasted and how poor opportunities are.

But this is just all my opinion of course.
 

IGSpur

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Physical isn't just strength or speed though, is it?
Ye but the players you mentioned caught the eye because they had ability along with speed and strength, bot because of their conditioning and ability to cover ground. Sancho, Hudson-Odoi, Lookman and Rashford aren't those type of players. They have eventually become more accustomed to it after getting chances and playing senior football. Their ability to cover large amounts of area game after game isn't what got them to the point clubs abroad wanted to sign them. Rashford's success was due to incredible fortune and again prior to that the attributes you listed weren't the highlight of his game, hence him struggling to make his England age group.

Conditioning happens through game time. Skipp and Winks however did show that more but again, that's an example of the CM/DM types who know they have to graft that little bit more and are playing their position. So they are more Poch type players
 

spurs9

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But and I know everyone will look to the Slovenian league or whatever, but Oduwa, was psychically able to play for the first team. He was quick and strong, and skillful and was more than good enough to play Europa League football.
He's not in the Slovenian league anymore, his team released him and he joined a team in the Danish league (2nd from bottom), but has only managed 3 sub apps so far. He's played more mins for their reserves.

If you talking Poch Specific, then you have to take into account that the 1st season Poch was here, he used the Europa to look over squad players (Townsend, Kane, Lamela etc) and in his 2nd season, our EL group was more difficult than some CL groups, yet he still played Onomah and Carroll etc, so I think your being a bit harsh here.

Also, I think Oduwa's issue was he has a poor/fragile mentality, so he was always going to struggle IMO.
 
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Because this is my point. English clubs have failed to bring through loads of players despite having incredible talent. You believe they were never good enough, I believe they weren't developed properly. That is why I mention it, as it is relevant to us also.People now believe this year group are different but it's because they are now leaving and looking for opportunity abroad. Look at Lookman, he had no chances under Big Sam, went Bundelsiga for half a season. Did excellently. Came back to Everton and still get a chance. This therefore means he is not good enough? So was that Bundesliga stuff an anomaly. He is proof that of the ridiculous nature of the Premier league. Before he went he wasn't good enough, if someone would suggest he should have gone abroad, you'd get they can't all go abroad. He went abroad, did well and proved himself, and still isn't playing here. If he stayed there where would he be? So basically, an academy player not getting opportunity at Premier League is not an indication of his actual ability in my eyes.



There are many reasons for this. Different styles. Being raised to play a certain style, and then playing with players and a manager that doesn't play in a style you are used to. Stagnation and a lack of interest due to the stagnation and feeling of hopelessness, as Vieira alluded to. The lack of being able to set roots in a club and properly develop. When a player comes here we give them at least a season before we judge them. Heck we gave SIssoko two. Or we claim they haven't had a preseason. We hang onto a player until end of August send them to a club that plays completely different football. They may struggle, get scapegoated, even if they do well, they come back go somewhere else, completely different style, never give them actually opportunities alongside quality players or have the trust from the manager. Then release them at 23, to go to another random club playing with poor players and go 'see I told you they were never good enough'.



I just flat out disagree with this. But that's my opinion, and I think people are starting to realise that one of those cliches with no real substance behind it. If someone comes through by pure fortune you can say they were always good enough, but you can never prove that someone would have been good enough had they got the chance so people have continued to use it.

I think after the last 5 years people are starting to realise how much talent has been wasted and how poor opportunities are.

But this is just all my opinion of course.[/QUOTE

But take Edwards. Clearly poch, rightly or wrongly does not think he is ready. So we loan him to Norwich. They hardly played him. So they obviously felt the same. So we loan him to a club in Holland where I think we would all agree the standard is a little lower. And so far, albeit it's early, he is not doing too much there. So at some stage u have to look at the player also. Playing under management with different styles is part of a footballers life. U have to be able to cope and adapt. Look at ratchford under mourinho. Men's football is a completely different game to underage with club and country where it's effectively played without any pressure and in many ways is based on raw talent. Men's football involves a mental toughness and ability to play under intense pressure week in week out, and in front of vocal supporters. They are poles apart. I would accept that the riches a player enjoys when they make the breakthrough in many ways is what prevents them getting opportunities in the first place as the game now, and managers jobs, are entirely dictated by riches in the game and the importance of finishing top four, avoiding relegation, getting promoted etc. So in many ways the financial success of the Premier league is working against young academy players.
 

blackburn

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An enormous factor is the first professional contract, some use it as a springboard, others see huge money (as a teenager) as arrival, it blows their mind as well as the people around them. Think of a kid you know from an estate that as a teenager is given £5/10k a week and the effect it would have on him.

There is more to football than football, the supporters of any club will give you a long list of lads that could have made it and didn't, they simply can't cope with the pressure and expectation.
 

C0YS

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I think that one of the most important differences between playing youth football and professional football is weaknesses get exposed. I think it was our own accadamy director who said a player who doesn't he basics very well but maybe isn't the most talented is much more likely to make it to the top than those super talented but ain't so good at the basics. If you have the rare combination of both then you can really hit the top.

This is a really important point, look at most of the players who make it to the top, or in the PL or even in international teams, most of them are not particularly exciting or players who take you out of your seat.

To make it you can't have weaknesses, people like Onomah are super talented but particularly when playing CM get exposed time after time in the championship. People like Oduwa were often quickly dropped from loan spells after consistent poor decisions. You can't do that at the top.

A lot of people need reminding, the best youth team players do not always, or even not usually, make the best professional players. The things that make certain players stand out in a league where they are not exposed, and battered and bruised about, rarely translates at the top level. If you can't do the basics well you not going anyway. Even exceptionally talented players, like taarabt, who have the ability to be right up there with the best in the world and have done ok when made the centre of everything are playing reserve football in Portugal. Being a Pro is not the same thing as being the 'best player'.
 

DCSPUR

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Don't have all the answers but building on some comments here: they have talent (Onomah, Edwards etc.) but can they work on the physical side (Kane stories illustrate this). Alli is an interesting eg for them to follow. Before pre-season says he wants to work to win a first team place and then he came into his first pre-season and clearly was intent on winning all the physical tests (beating out the prior top man Nabil) and then there is the mentality....comes in 3 months after playing Yeovil and nutmegs Modric and Kroos.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...-key-moments-in-his-amazing-year-at-tottenham

Feel as if Onomah has been a bit unlucky and could have a shot this summer if he can remain injury free and come in with a positive mindset
 

Johnny J

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Because this is my point. English clubs have failed to bring through loads of players despite having incredible talent. You believe they were never good enough, I believe they weren't developed properly. That is why I mention it, as it is relevant to us also.People now believe this year group are different but it's because they are now leaving and looking for opportunity abroad. Look at Lookman, he had no chances under Big Sam, went Bundelsiga for half a season. Did excellently. Came back to Everton and still get a chance. This therefore means he is not good enough? So was that Bundesliga stuff an anomaly. He is proof that of the ridiculous nature of the Premier league. Before he went he wasn't good enough, if someone would suggest he should have gone abroad, you'd get they can't all go abroad. He went abroad, did well and proved himself, and still isn't playing here. If he stayed there where would he be? So basically, an academy player not getting opportunity at Premier League is not an indication of his actual ability in my eyes.



There are many reasons for this. Different styles. Being raised to play a certain style, and then playing with players and a manager that doesn't play in a style you are used to. Stagnation and a lack of interest due to the stagnation and feeling of hopelessness, as Vieira alluded to. The lack of being able to set roots in a club and properly develop. When a player comes here we give them at least a season before we judge them. Heck we gave SIssoko two. Or we claim they haven't had a preseason. We hang onto a player until end of August send them to a club that plays completely different football. They may struggle, get scapegoated, even if they do well, they come back go somewhere else, completely different style, never give them actually opportunities alongside quality players or have the trust from the manager. Then release them at 23, to go to another random club playing with poor players and go 'see I told you they were never good enough'.



I just flat out disagree with this. But that's my opinion, and I think people are starting to realise that one of those cliches with no real substance behind it. If someone comes through by pure fortune you can say they were always good enough, but you can never prove that someone would have been good enough had they got the chance so people have continued to use it.

I think after the last 5 years people are starting to realise how much talent has been wasted and how poor opportunities are.

But this is just all my opinion of course.
I agree that a lot of talent is being wasted. If would be interesting to look at how many home grown youngsters who are actually given a chance in the first team succeed or fail. My perception is that a great number succeed, which might suggest that clubs just need to give them more chances.

I mean, KWP is quite obviously ready for the PL, and has played well whenever he's given the rare chance. Yet if he was playing abroad, we'd probably be interested in buying him.
 

C0YS

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What's the evidence for Onomah getting exposed time after time in the Championship?
Based on when I watched him play CM at Villa. You can ask a few people on here who agree and some villa fans.

There is a reason managers have consistently been unwilling to play him in central midfield..
 
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Not even sure it's that...

You look at Rashford, Odoi, Lookman, Sancho, Sane etc and, basically, they're all freaks - ridiculous speed, solid builds, great technique, balance and decent composure.

Not sure we've had a single attacking youth player who fits all those elements despite some looking promising - and all our lads can probably knock on Kane's door to ask what they need to work on in the gym, as well as on the pitch.

Even Edwards still isn't explosive enough and still doesn't fight hard enough, despite his great balance and technique - and, I'm sure, people have been pointing out that he needed to work harder on the physical side.

He could still be great, but guys like Silva are small and have a massive fire in their belly etc. That fire is just as important as the vision.

As for Onomah, I'm a bit baffled by that one. Was absolutely certain he'd make it. Hope he stil does. Maybe that gym work and yardage is missing. Not sure.
It's pretty well known that the likes of Chelsea and City hoover up all the most physically gifted kids at young ages. And that we stopped concentrating on that under McDermott, and started searching for the overlooked kids, the younger, smaller ones in each age group, who need more time and developing.
 

Blake Griffin

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Interesting.
Believe he partly left to further his career but does not appear to be ahead of a number of his peers
he left to go to chelsea, it was only because we threatened to report them that he ended up at palace.

other clubs were after tob at the time too but we managed to convince him to stay. i remember saying that it'll be interesting to see which of the two made the right choice but as it stands neither are really where they'd hoped to be at this stage, though it's still relatively early days for both. i've been disappointed by tob's progress(or lack of) and i'm not really sure what we're trying to achieve this season by constantly playing him as a winger, to be fair he's quite a difficult player to define but i don't see this as the best way of using him.
 

edson

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he left to go to chelsea, it was only because we threatened to report them that he ended up at palace.

other clubs were after tob at the time too but we managed to convince him to stay. i remember saying that it'll be interesting to see which of the two made the right choice but as it stands neither are really where they'd hoped to be at this stage, though it's still relatively early days for both. i've been disappointed by tob's progress(or lack of) and i'm not really sure what we're trying to achieve this season by constantly playing him as a winger, to be fair he's quite a difficult player to define but i don't see this as the best way of using him.
If I remember rightly Kirby also played in a match for arsenal but nothing come of it and ended up at Palace.
 

BPR_U16

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he left to go to chelsea, it was only because we threatened to report them that he ended up at palace.

other clubs were after tob at the time too but we managed to convince him to stay. i remember saying that it'll be interesting to see which of the two made the right choice but as it stands neither are really where they'd hoped to be at this stage, though it's still relatively early days for both. i've been disappointed by tob's progress(or lack of) and i'm not really sure what we're trying to achieve this season by constantly playing him as a winger, to be fair he's quite a difficult player to define but i don't see this as the best way of using him.
Agree he ditched us for the promised land of Chelsea - but why when they bring no-one through their ranks?

TBH he would have had as good a chance breaking thru with us as any other premiership club.
 
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