The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

spud

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My first time in here and although I've only read the last three pages I've learned quite a lot about the players coming through. (Or not.) I think I'll be a regular visitor.

Thanks to those who posted.
 

class of 62

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Good opportunity to get a tidy away following. Shame 1882 are doing dry Jan.
Be nice if they among others could make a show for the upcoming u/23games v the goons and Hitler youth. I really don't understand why these games are not more advertised by the club and supported.. North Herts area is like 70% spurs
 

Locotoro

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Would be good to see Roles rewarded. I go on about how 85% of our academy players have the ability to play for our first team or PL football, but I really don't see the benefit of trying out Marsh. I'd be all for it if playing him meant us earning money to invest into our squad but if we're developing SKipp Marsh isn't going to realistically come through, so it's just a wasted squad place I feel which could have gone to Roles, who offers something different and is vastly more talented. Granted he's more of a risk taker, but I don't really get this only try DM/CMs. Very basic, risk averse players, who realistically aren't going to all be able to get games. How Lesniak, Marsh and Amos got closer to the first team than some of our other players I'll never know...well I do know, they work hard, and aren't considered liabilities due to their style, but still.
You know far more about the Youth Academy than I do but would you not say that Poch is looking at the holes in the senior team and trying to fill them with youth options before being forced to look for a transfer option.

We have Dembele leaving and Wanyama on his last legs with Dier being out for a long while. Cue opportunities for Skipp and Marsh to see if they can fill the roles of DM for the squad.

We also have Alderwereild potentially leaving in the summer, cue an opportunity for Eyoma to come into the squad and try and prove himself as 4th CB behind Foyth, Sanchez and Jan.

Our attacking players are performing fairly well and are fairly injury resistant as a unit so there is inevitably going to be fewer opportunities for youth in those areas.
 
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How long do you all think it will be until Parrot is given a chance in the cup etc. Personally thought he could've came on towards the end of the match against Tranmere if he was called up.
 

Locotoro

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Posting this here but feel free to either reply or message me directly.

We seem to have a lot of expertise on the youth team and I keep thinking we should utilise this more but I don't know how.

If anyone has any ideas or thoughts then let me know :)
I wonder whether anyone has been in contact with the Club as to why the coverage of the youth games is so poor by comparison to over clubs?

I know that doesn't directly tie in with your question but we may find that some of our member's youth expertise could be a useful asset to the club if they were looking into improving this part of their media
 

Saoirse

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I think I'll go along to Borehamwood for this one, train prices seem reasonable and it should be fun. Notice that even for home fans it's members only with no general sale, guess they're antipating potential trouble?
 

IGSpur

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It is indeed strange because if we are talking about potential mistakes, those who play CM and CDM will have far more pressure of not making any, while attacking players should in theory get a better chance of playing due to their positions are further away from our own goal, thus we can worry about them less - yet not so currently. In a sense Poch is taking more of a risk by playing youth at CM, CDM and denfensive positions in general, and yet that is exactly where he’s playing them at. I understand there’s a need right now but still.
I disagree. I think the riskiest place to play is GK and then CB. CB is the last line of defence for any outfield player a mistake there and you're left one on one. It's also a reason GKs hardly ever come through without loads of loans, they're such a risky position 90% of managers will want a really wise reliable head.

CMs can lose the ball and be covered by defence. I have no doubt that 90% of the CMs in our academy could play PL football and look competent in our first team, if they are told to pitch the ball up and pass it on. Proof is that fairly average players even at academy level can come in and look decent. Again to clarify I'm not meaning to undermine their ability in anyway but relative to other players they are average. A grafter, plodder, work horse whatever you want to call them at academy level can come in and do a job as there are two lines of protection before a goal. It's why Oxford at 16 was able to play CM a fairly unfamiliar position for him against Arsenal and get man of the match. If he misplaced a pass it wasn't going to really cost.

Attacking/creative players are where they are because of their attacking ability and not defensive ability, so they will likely not have the work rate in CM that most managers would like or from the wings. Managers well ours, I believe then panics. I don't think it's so much losing the ball up the field he is worried about, it's not getting back to support the defence in transition, and sadly that is exactly what you'll expected from a talented attacking player. They're not fully developed player and will lack in some areas, so they are therefore more risky. There will be a point where fans will rate Lesniak, Marsh and Amos, as higher than Onomah, Edwards and likely Maghoma as those are more mercurial talents that come with risk.

Those water carrier types are 10 a penny, fortunately in Winks and Skipp we've got 2 who actually have ability to be more than functional and actual good players for the first team. And in Skipp we have a player who has even more potential in both defence and attack who could go on to very big things, but I think we are missing out on a lot of talent due to the managers risk averse nature, but hey, we've already saved money in bringing Winks through, and if all goes well, we'll either save a lot or make a lot with Skipp
 
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Didn't even know people still did sock watch, that will be my legacy here lol
I presume you are referring to Onomah and Edwards. While I agree our manager does appear to favour a certain type of player those two have gone to two different clubs on loan in the interim and have not done anything of note to date. So hard to be too critical of poch until someone he ignores does something significant somewhere else
 

IGSpur

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You know far more about the Youth Academy than I do but would you not say that Poch is looking at the holes in the senior team and trying to fill them with youth options before being forced to look for a transfer option.

We have Dembele leaving and Wanyama on his last legs with Dier being out for a long while. Cue opportunities for Skipp and Marsh to see if they can fill the roles of DM for the squad.

We also have Alderwereild potentially leaving in the summer, cue an opportunity for Eyoma to come into the squad and try and prove himself as 4th CB behind Foyth, Sanchez and Jan.

Our attacking players are performing fairly well and are fairly injury resistant as a unit so there is inevitably going to be fewer opportunities for youth in those areas.
Possibly. But these injuries won't last for long, Dier will be back in a month or so I reckon and Skipp has only started one PL game so I can't see him finding legit game time for both Skipp and another academy CM (apparently Marsh) for that to really work, and I wouldn't expect him to either.

Let's say we don't buy anyone in January and Dier doesn't recover do you see Marsh starting any games? inexperienced players will be used as little as possible and if one has to be used that game time will go to Skipp. I just can't see any time for Marsh, it was nice for him to come on but I would rather it go to a player more talented who has been playing better. I would still much rather Onomah over Marsh come summer as Onomah is a considerably better player just not as much of a work horse.

I 100% agree with your mentality though, use the academy where you can, to fill the gaps so you can invest in a better player during the summer. As my previous post said, I can't see Eyoma playing any real football where he might be considered an option. Look at KWP at RB and his performances, Eyoma at 18 will not do anything in training nor will he get any game time that will convince Poch to not buy a CB in the summer, and i agree with that. I really like Eyoma and pleased he got on, but I don't expect to see him again this season nor seriously play for us next season. It's a very risky position.

I agree with what you say about our attacking positions, not only are they very good and generally all fit, but there are none currently available from the academy who I believe have the ability to compete with them. Some could argue Roles again, and maybe in the FA Cup a chance could have been given to him and rest some players to try him out, but Edwards is still our best and most naturally talented attacking player and was our superstar, and if something can be worked out of him we should try him in the summer, but again, I won't hold my breath. The only 2 Poch has ever looked though briefly, were Edwards, well, because you can't ignore him. He is top top level talent and Georgiou who works as hard back as he does forward, however, his ability going forward will never be of the level of our current attacking players, whereas I can see Edwards' potential being of that level.
 

LexingtonSpurs

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Attacking/creative players are where they are because of their attacking ability and not defensive ability, so they will likely not have the work rate in CM that most managers would like or from the wings. Managers well ours, I believe then panics.
I think this is a harsh judgment of Poch. He does not strike me as one who "panics".

But, I think, more to your point, that Poch believes that the team shape and tactics start and end with defensive responsibility - for all players. It does not matter where you are in the formation, there is a team ethos of defending first, attacking second. So, an attacking player who is less diligent in his defensive responsibilities will have a harder time breaking into the squad. And, I think that does make it easier for someone like a Skipp, who understands those responsibilities to make it into the squad over a more technically talented attacker.

Once the defensive foundation is solid - Poch is happy to let players "express themselves", just not at the expense of the team defensive ethos.
 

IGSpur

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I presume you are referring to Onomah and Edwards. While I agree our manager does appear to favour a certain type of player those two have gone to two different clubs on loan in the interim and have not done anything of note to date. So hard to be too critical of poch until someone he ignores does something significant somewhere else
I assume you misquoted my post, but the 'they have to do something elsewhere otherwise they were never good enough for us' doesn't work with me.

You are implying that their destiny and path was already set, and nothing could have been done to avoid that path. If that was the case, the club, managers, England coaches would not have invested so much time into those two players if they didn't think they had the potential to be top class. Unless all of those people can't judge a player and 'as it appears' they were never good enough for Spurs first team all along, then maybe it's fair to ask what they saw in those two players and why were the club unable to get it out of them?

For those who will then say the players lack the mentality. Consider that the coaches have worked with those 2 players since they were 8 years old. They know their mentality, and every 2 years continued to offer them contracts until u16 level. They still know what their mentality is like and continue to invest time and money into them as do England. In England's case their judgement was vindicated. Now they get to17 and Poch is workign with them. Poch can tell exactly what their personalites are like and would have been told by the coaches. And yet they were offered contracts, in Onomah's case 2. Poch openly praised both of their abiltiy publicly, and knew if they had 'attitude problems' or were 'lazy' but still invested more money into them. So what did the club do to ensure they got they tapped into their potential? They knew what they were working with, did they try to do anything different? Or did they just expect the same mentality from them, as someone who has grafted his whole career being a dog body in CM. They will of couse have different mentalities. At what point do we look at the club/maanger and question their judgement on the ability of both or question how they were managed and developed? We can't say it's the players fault all along otherwise I'd say the club have been hoodwinked by both these players into paying them loads of money.

Was their path determined at 17? At 17 did we think Onomah's limit was Sheffield Wednesday. Of course not, so I don't buy the argument he was never good enough, and look at where he is now as evidence of this.

Even looking at Hudson-Odoi, Chelsea have had so many talente dplayers where at 17 everyone is excited. Like McEAchran, Chelsea do as they do, suck at developing players and McEachran ends up at Brentford and was never good enough. same with RLC, DaSilva, now we have Mount and CHO. Mount out played Kluivert in Eredivise, and was rewarded with a loan to Derby while Kluivert went Roma. Mount could easily not play for the frist team and end up a Sheffield United player in a years time and not be good enough. Everyone sees Bayern come after CHO and now CHelsea fans think he might be good enough, they think he should stay. If he stays we all know what will happen, and how it will end up. but the story will end up being he was never good enough. I read the CHelsea forum and they say the exact same thing. How many players have Chelsea regretted letting go. AN academy that has won 6 FAYCs and 2 UYLs, as none have pulled up trees due to being stifled according to that logic not one player, not one, could have been good enough to play for their first team. That is why I'm all for our best players getting out, ours and other clubs. As we know the path laid out for them. I'm pleased that the u17 age group appear to be getting chances, but everyone raves about that age group. Remember Onomah's age group were basically as good, they won their Euros but the WC was not their year so we don't know if they could have done the double. He was a mainstay in that age group, they had hype and now where is he? Would never have happened in another country.
 

Cornpattbuck

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I think this is a harsh judgment of Poch. He does not strike me as one who "panics".

But, I think, more to your point, that Poch believes that the team shape and tactics start and end with defensive responsibility - for all players. It does not matter where you are in the formation, there is a team ethos of defending first, attacking second. So, an attacking player who is less diligent in his defensive responsibilities will have a harder time breaking into the squad. And, I think that does make it easier for someone like a Skipp, who understands those responsibilities to make it into the squad over a more technically talented attacker.

Once the defensive foundation is solid - Poch is happy to let players "express themselves", just not at the expense of the team defensive ethos.
Not even sure it's that...

You look at Rashford, Odoi, Lookman, Sancho, Sane etc and, basically, they're all freaks - ridiculous speed, solid builds, great technique, balance and decent composure.

Not sure we've had a single attacking youth player who fits all those elements despite some looking promising - and all our lads can probably knock on Kane's door to ask what they need to work on in the gym, as well as on the pitch.

Even Edwards still isn't explosive enough and still doesn't fight hard enough, despite his great balance and technique - and, I'm sure, people have been pointing out that he needed to work harder on the physical side.

He could still be great, but guys like Silva are small and have a massive fire in their belly etc. That fire is just as important as the vision.

As for Onomah, I'm a bit baffled by that one. Was absolutely certain he'd make it. Hope he stil does. Maybe that gym work and yardage is missing. Not sure.
 

IGSpur

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I think this is a harsh judgment of Poch. He does not strike me as one who "panics".

But, I think, more to your point, that Poch believes that the team shape and tactics start and end with defensive responsibility - for all players. It does not matter where you are in the formation, there is a team ethos of defending first, attacking second. So, an attacking player who is less diligent in his defensive responsibilities will have a harder time breaking into the squad. And, I think that does make it easier for someone like a Skipp, who understands those responsibilities to make it into the squad over a more technically talented attacker.

Once the defensive foundation is solid - Poch is happy to let players "express themselves", just not at the expense of the team defensive ethos.
Ye probably, I think we are saying the same thing essentially. I said panic as in won't like those players that will muck up his shape and he won't be willing to invest time into those players as it cause problems to the team. Those players who are more defensively minded, have work rate, get about the pitch are going to fit into his ethos more than those who don't. Those players that traditionally do not play like that are attacking talents, whereas those that do are your DMs/CMs. The issue is when they are now settled and part of the team and can start 'expressing themselves' there isn't a lot to express for those players, and those players that traditionally express themselves are already out of his planning. KWP is arguably the only one that has got somewhere and he still isn't really trusted and he has had to reign his game in. Like I say Skipp can have a bit of a gung-ho style so if/when he settles him expressing himself will be good. Not Onomah, Maghoma level but still very good.

Again this is just how Poch is, I've learned to accept that element that he sin't really going to adjust or relax his methods in an attempt to develop our real talents. While I find it frustrating, that's just how it is and explains what has gone on for the last 4 years. Our attacking talents will struggle for a look-in and should leave elsewhere, for their and England's sake. If we can bring through some good/decent CMs, we will save money, and do a good job for England. The only proper talent talent, that could stand a chance here, is TOB, but I don't know what's going on with him at the moment. And as I said with Marsh it would be hard to bring through 2 academy players in one season especially in the same season. But TOB, is a ball retainer and an excellent one at that, but maybe not a hard enough worker
 

IGSpur

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Not even sure it's that...

You look at Rashford, Odoi, Lookman, Sancho, Sane etc and, basically, they're all freaks - ridiculous speed, solid builds, great technique, balance and decent composure.

Not sure we've had a single attacking youth player who fits all those elements despite some looking promising - and all our lads can probably knock on Kane's door to ask what they need to work on in the gym, as well as on the pitch.

Even Edwards still isn't explosive enough and still doesn't fight hard enough, despite his great balance and technique - and, I'm sure, people have been pointing out that he needed to work harder on the physical side.

He could still be great, but guys like Silva are small and have a massive fire in their belly etc. That fire is just as important as the vision.

As for Onomah, I'm a bit baffled by that one. Was absolutely certain he'd make it. Hope he stil does. Maybe that gym work and yardage is missing. Not sure.
I was tempted to mention the physical side. But I'm speaking in terms of Poch specifically here. If you are quick/strong etc it will help your case 10 fold and as you say is the reason, those players above have been able to adapt so well whereas Foden, Gomes and Edwards would need a more careful way of developing.

But and I know everyone will look to the Slovenian league or whatever, but Oduwa, was psychically able to play for the first team. He was quick and strong, and skillful and was more than good enough to play Europa League football. I think he did excellently in preseason linking up with Danny Rose before being sent to Rangers. With the benefit of hindsight it's could have been the lack of trust in the defensive side of his game. That is also maybe why Pritchard wasn't kept here after his great loan from Swindon. Who knows what would have happened if he got injured but I'm inclined to believe he would have struggled regardless.

Re: the fire in the belly. As I said previously, Poch and the coaches will have known if he has the fire in his belly over the course of assessing him for 10 years. If they believed that nothing could ever be done about it, they would have just sacked him off no? So if they kept him would have thought despite not having the fire in the belly he still had the ability to be top quality. So I would ask what did they do differently to try and spark that fire. Did they give incentives, did they make him feel he stood a chance if. If they club doesn't treat anyone differently and doesn't intend to bring that fire, again, why keep him on, especially if he is a bit of a problem child. So that leads me to believe the club/Poch believes they could have got it out of him, but ended up unsuccessful
 
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I assume you misquoted my post, but the 'they have to do something elsewhere otherwise they were never good enough for us' doesn't work with me.

You are implying that their destiny and path was already set, and nothing could have been done to avoid that path. If that was the case, the club, managers, England coaches would not have invested so much time into those two players if they didn't think they had the potential to be top class. Unless all of those people can't judge a player and 'as it appears' they were never good enough for Spurs first team all along, then maybe it's fair to ask what they saw in those two players and why were the club unable to get it out of them?

For those who will then say the players lack the mentality. Consider that the coaches have worked with those 2 players since they were 8 years old. They know their mentality, and every 2 years continued to offer them contracts until u16 level. They still know what their mentality is like and continue to invest time and money into them as do England. In England's case their judgement was vindicated. Now they get to17 and Poch is workign with them. Poch can tell exactly what their personalites are like and would have been told by the coaches. And yet they were offered contracts, in Onomah's case 2. Poch openly praised both of their abiltiy publicly, and knew if they had 'attitude problems' or were 'lazy' but still invested more money into them. So what did the club do to ensure they got they tapped into their potential? They knew what they were working with, did they try to do anything different? Or did they just expect the same mentality from them, as someone who has grafted his whole career being a dog body in CM. They will of couse have different mentalities. At what point do we look at the club/maanger and question their judgement on the ability of both or question how they were managed and developed? We can't say it's the players fault all along otherwise I'd say the club have been hoodwinked by both these players into paying them loads of money.

Was their path determined at 17? At 17 did we think Onomah's limit was Sheffield Wednesday. Of course not, so I don't buy the argument he was never good enough, and look at where he is now as evidence of this.

Even looking at Hudson-Odoi, Chelsea have had so many talente dplayers where at 17 everyone is excited. Like McEAchran, Chelsea do as they do, suck at developing players and McEachran ends up at Brentford and was never good enough. same with RLC, DaSilva, now we have Mount and CHO. Mount out played Kluivert in Eredivise, and was rewarded with a loan to Derby while Kluivert went Roma. Mount could easily not play for the frist team and end up a Sheffield United player in a years time and not be good enough. Everyone sees Bayern come after CHO and now CHelsea fans think he might be good enough, they think he should stay. If he stays we all know what will happen, and how it will end up. but the story will end up being he was never good enough. I read the CHelsea forum and they say the exact same thing. How many players have Chelsea regretted letting go. AN academy that has won 6 FAYCs and 2 UYLs, as none have pulled up trees due to being stifled according to that logic not one player, not one, could have been good enough to play for their first team. That is why I'm all for our best players getting out, ours and other clubs. As we know the path laid out for them. I'm pleased that the u17 age group appear to be getting chances, but everyone raves about that age group. Remember Onomah's age group were basically as good, they won their Euros but the WC was not their year so we don't know if they could have done the double. He was a mainstay in that age group, they had hype and now where is he? Would never have happened in another country.
There is a raft of players that played underage for England that never pushed on. So I don't understand why u continue to quote that. I'm not saying Onomah and Edwards were and are not talented. So if it's correct that we did not develop them properly there is no reason if they have the technical and mental strength that they should not show their worth somewhere else. To date they have not done so. I don't think poch can be blamed for that. If they are good enough they will make it
 

Cornpattbuck

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I was tempted to mention the physical side. But I'm speaking in terms of Poch specifically here. If you are quick/strong etc it will help your case 10 fold and as you say is the reason, those players above have been able to adapt so well whereas Foden, Gomes and Edwards would need a more careful way of developing.

But and I know everyone will look to the Slovenian league or whatever, but Oduwa, was psychically able to play for the first team. He was quick and strong, and skillful and was more than good enough to play Europa League football. I think he did excellently in preseason linking up with Danny Rose before being sent to Rangers. With the benefit of hindsight it's could have been the lack of trust in the defensive side of his game. That is also maybe why Pritchard wasn't kept here after his great loan from Swindon. Who knows what would have happened if he got injured but I'm inclined to believe he would have struggled regardless.

Re: the fire in the belly. As I said previously, Poch and the coaches will have known if he has the fire in his belly over the course of assessing him for 10 years. If they believed that nothing could ever be done about it, they would have just sacked him off no? So if they kept him would have thought despite not having the fire in the belly he still had the ability to be top quality. So I would ask what did they do differently to try and spark that fire. Did they give incentives, did they make him feel he stood a chance if. If they club doesn't treat anyone differently and doesn't intend to bring that fire, again, why keep him on, especially if he is a bit of a problem child. So that leads me to believe the club/Poch believes they could have got it out of him, but ended up unsuccessful
Physical isn't just strength or speed though, is it?

It's the ability to cover a lot of ground and do it game after game after game after game and stay mentally strong.

It's conditioning. I'm wondering if that's where a couple of our young talents have, so far, fallen short, where as Winks and Skipp have excelled. Onomah and Edwards can still do it but they NEED to graft off the pitch.

Great physical conditioning helps all game concentration and coupled with great technique it's absolutely essential now. I think it's underestimated.

Funnily enough it's probably the main reason that, say, Milner has been a much better player since he passed 30. He's clearly worked on it.
 

IGSpur

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There is a raft of players that played underage for England that never pushed on. So I don't understand why u continue to quote that.
Because this is my point. English clubs have failed to bring through loads of players despite having incredible talent. You believe they were never good enough, I believe they weren't developed properly. That is why I mention it, as it is relevant to us also.People now believe this year group are different but it's because they are now leaving and looking for opportunity abroad. Look at Lookman, he had no chances under Big Sam, went Bundelsiga for half a season. Did excellently. Came back to Everton and still get a chance. This therefore means he is not good enough? So was that Bundesliga stuff an anomaly. He is proof that of the ridiculous nature of the Premier league. Before he went he wasn't good enough, if someone would suggest he should have gone abroad, you'd get they can't all go abroad. He went abroad, did well and proved himself, and still isn't playing here. If he stayed there where would he be? So basically, an academy player not getting opportunity at Premier League is not an indication of his actual ability in my eyes.

if they have the technical and mental strength that they should not show their worth somewhere else.
There are many reasons for this. Different styles. Being raised to play a certain style, and then playing with players and a manager that doesn't play in a style you are used to. Stagnation and a lack of interest due to the stagnation and feeling of hopelessness, as Vieira alluded to. The lack of being able to set roots in a club and properly develop. When a player comes here we give them at least a season before we judge them. Heck we gave SIssoko two. Or we claim they haven't had a preseason. We hang onto a player until end of August send them to a club that plays completely different football. They may struggle, get scapegoated, even if they do well, they come back go somewhere else, completely different style, never give them actually opportunities alongside quality players or have the trust from the manager. Then release them at 23, to go to another random club playing with poor players and go 'see I told you they were never good enough'.

If they are good enough they will make it
I just flat out disagree with this. But that's my opinion, and I think people are starting to realise that one of those cliches with no real substance behind it. If someone comes through by pure fortune you can say they were always good enough, but you can never prove that someone would have been good enough had they got the chance so people have continued to use it.

I think after the last 5 years people are starting to realise how much talent has been wasted and how poor opportunities are.

But this is just all my opinion of course.
 

IGSpur

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Physical isn't just strength or speed though, is it?
Ye but the players you mentioned caught the eye because they had ability along with speed and strength, bot because of their conditioning and ability to cover ground. Sancho, Hudson-Odoi, Lookman and Rashford aren't those type of players. They have eventually become more accustomed to it after getting chances and playing senior football. Their ability to cover large amounts of area game after game isn't what got them to the point clubs abroad wanted to sign them. Rashford's success was due to incredible fortune and again prior to that the attributes you listed weren't the highlight of his game, hence him struggling to make his England age group.

Conditioning happens through game time. Skipp and Winks however did show that more but again, that's an example of the CM/DM types who know they have to graft that little bit more and are playing their position. So they are more Poch type players
 
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