The Spurs Transfer Wishlist & Scouting Thread

[heelspurs]

Seems people are talking about two players split by about 2 years in age playing 2 different positions ...

19 years of age and can't be coached up but 21 years of age and can ... Must have missed the manual on how, where and when this kind of thing becomes apparent.

Well, yeah, but not how you put it here. The two players some folks are talking about are the Ryan Sessegnon some think exists, the one with inferred qualities from Championship goal stats, and the one that actually exists and looked, PREDICTABLY, out of his depth in the premiere league. Some think Poch is a sorcerer and can merge these two players into one. Others realize that there are numerous examples within our current squad that improved their play within a stable and organized team but didn't really improve their deficiencies as individual players are are therefore apprehensive of bringing in another technically deficient player whose justification would be based on production rather than contribution to actual play.

Others brought in AWB into the argument as a false equivalence. But just like every logical fallacy it was poop and easily refuted.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Well, yeah, but not how you put it here. The two players some folks are talking about are the Ryan Sessegnon some think exists, the one with inferred qualities from Championship goal stats, and the one that actually exists and looked, PREDICTABLY, out of his depth in the premiere league. Some think Poch is a sorcerer and can merge these two players into one. Others realize that there are numerous examples within our current squad that improved their play within a stable and organized team but didn't really improve their deficiencies as individual players are are therefore apprehensive of bringing in another technically deficient player whose justification would be based on production rather than contribution to actual play.

Others brought in AWB into the argument as a false equivalence. But just like every logical fallacy it was poop and easily refuted.

Three managers in a season will do that to any teenager ...

Anyway, horses for courses, talent is there with both not sure I could find fault with Spurs going after either with one seeming more likely than the other.

Dreams of grandeur with some of our fans.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Anyway, I look forward to all the usual names coming up with all the unusual names to look out for, if nothing else it gives me something to while away the time while waiting to see who the actual names we're looking at turn out to be.

 

[heelspurs]

I actually prefer AWB to Sessegnon but my point was it's hard to judge a player at 18 as nobody would have predicted Wan Bissakas rise so might be too soon to write Sessegnon off quite yet.

Bolded is a very good point and I totally agree with it. However, if we didn't know about him how could we predict anything about him? I bet his coaches were able to predict it. Otherwise he wouldn't have been in the 1st team from the start of the season. And many did after his first couple of starts. We have seen a whole PL season of Sessegnon (all due respect to his age and your previous point) and I am not sure anyone predicts the same. And I said the same with his play from the season before. I will happily change my opinion if his play warrants it likes AWB.

But the thing that drives me bonkers is if he had played the exact same but someone wormed his way into 5 more goals many/most folks would say he's 'the mustard', 'gotta get Sess', 'if Levy doesn't get Sess', etc etc etc. He'd still be the same player with the same deficiencies.

 

[heelspurs]

Video proof:
From a wide touch-line position Sessegnon beats the Southampton forward and turns Cedric's head off his neck and fires in an outstanding cross:


From a wide-position, Sessegnon beats Davies and gets in a dangerous cross:
(at 0:58)

Takes three Wolves defenders out of the game with a nice one-two, stays onside, fires in a brilliant low cross:
(at 1:00)

I would go on but I'm not a video scout. I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Uhhh, no. None of those are supportive of your statment. In the first ball bounces off his right foot and he chops on to his left and make a blind cross. Credit for making a decisive move after the bounce and perhaps he has a feel for the angles/knowing where he was on the field.

In the second he literally fell over. And the third is typical of his play but none are 'beating a man' per se. He doesn't really do that because he can't dribble and has no close control. That is very evident and that is why I challenged you to show proof.

 

[Adam456]

when was the last time Zaha played against a team banked up. Zaha at his best is when he has space to attack, and that's what is so annoying about his stats because no one parks the bus v Palace

That is an issue for some players I agree. Benteke, to keep the Palace theme going, or Darren Bent were prime examples.

However, in Zaha's case, just a cursory check of his YouTube videos shows how often he creates chances or scores against 5,6,7+ defenders or in incredibly tight areas. Sometimes it just seems impossible and yet he gets through or comes away with the ball. It's not just hit them on the break stuff.

And sometimes of course it goes the other way. He is CP's No 1 threat and therefore teams can afford to man mark or double up on him. But that's much harder when the players around him are Kane, Son, Alli, Eriksen etc.

Add to this that he's still only 26 and could/should improve when playing with better players, under Poch's regime and with the facilities that we have available

Not saying he's the be all and end all but I'd have been very happy to see him warming up after 60 mins on Tuesday.

As said before I'd love us to get him but £75m is way too much

 

[heelspurs]

Three managers in a season will do that to any teenager ...

Solid f*cking point. But he looked the same with the manager that brought him up.

Dreams of grandeur with some of our fans.

That doesn't apply to me. Someone posted earlier about hoping we bring in players that we haven't been linked with. I wholeheartedly agree as long as they at fundamentally, technically complete and improve the overall footballing ability of the squad. I have no need for dick measuring contests of who won the TW. I just want to see players all around the field that don't take 3 touches to control a f*cking ball. Or can at least make a simple pass with the off foot without having to do a jig first. Marginal technical gains at each position will do wonders in Poch's systems because it is awkward to play against.

 

[razzmaster]

Bolded is a very good point and I totally agree with it. However, if we didn't know about him how could we predict anything about him? I bet his coaches were able to predict it. Otherwise he wouldn't have been in the 1st team from the start of the season. And many did after his first couple of starts. We have seen a whole PL season of Sessegnon (all due respect to his age and your previous point) and I am not sure anyone predicts the same. And I said the same with his play from the season before. I will happily change my opinion if his play warrants it likes AWB.

But the thing that drives me bonkers is if he had played the exact same but someone wormed his way into 5 more goals many/most folks would say he's 'the mustard', 'gotta get Sess', 'if Levy doesn't get Sess', etc etc etc. He'd still be the same player with the same deficiencies.

At some point we need to take a few risks in the transfer market and Sessegnon could be one of them. I'm not one to jump on the next big thing bandwagon but can see enough in him to justify the gamble. (although I can see why others would disagree)

AWB on the other hand is no gamble but we may be too late now. (Shame we didn't spot him at 18!!!)

 

[Trees]

Everyone knows there are games against deep-lying teams like Brighton on Tuesday where we can't play Davies and Rose has been ineffective as a high wing-back, poor crossing, giving away possession cheaply. Sessegnon's role for Fulham as a wide forward has been productive, he has a crazy accurate and powerful left foot, sneaks into the box with perfect timing, very tricky player knows how to beat a man and get to the by-line. He's the type of player who can get produce a goal out of nowhere against a team like Brighton with eleven defenders in and around the box because of his creativity getting to the line, beating the widest defender, and left-footed shooting from distance. The problem for me is he hasn't shown himself to be an elite or even near-elite defender against premier league competition--and I worry that even a particularly physical mid-table team like West Ham could give him trouble if he's played as a LB in a back four. Essentially his year in the PL was wasted and now Fulham want Luke Shaw/Kyle Walker/Ben Mendy type money. But he's 18. The potential is definitely there for a very productive high wing back who could be a game-changer against bottom-table teams that sit back and defend. It's all about whether he could be obtained for a reasonable fee that leaves enough room to improve the squad elsewhere.

He has the intelligence and athleticism to be an amazing LB/LWB depending on what system we use and with Poch's guidance. He's 19 next month and has a scary high ceiling for what he can develop into.

Reported release clause, 1 year left on contract according to JJ. Fulham want crazy money, but isn’t going to happen.

IMO he only wants to play for us and we will get him for around £22m.

 

[heelspurs]

Shame we didn't spot him at 18!!!

But we were first to 'see' him so it is even a bigger problem.

At some point we need to take a few risks in the transfer market and Sessegnon could be one of them. I'm not one to jump on the next big thing bandwagon but can see enough in him to justify the gamble. (although I can see why others would disagree)

I can see it too...at 15-20M. At 30M we talking real money and then my vision becomes cloudy.

Either way, well played on the little debate.

 

[Lighty64]

That is an issue for some players I agree. Benteke, to keep the Palace theme going, or Darren Bent were prime examples.

However, in Zaha's case, just a cursory check of his YouTube videos shows how often he creates chances or scores against 5,6,7+ defenders or in incredibly tight areas. Sometimes it just seems impossible and yet he gets through or comes away with the ball. It's not just hit them on the break stuff.

And sometimes of course it goes the other way. He is CP's No 1 threat and therefore teams can afford to man mark or double up on him. But that's much harder when the players around him are Kane, Son, Alli, Eriksen etc.

Add to this that he's still only 26 and could/should improve when playing with better players, under Poch's regime and with the facilities that we have available

Not saying he's the be all and end all but I'd have been very happy to see him warming up after 60 mins on Tuesday.

As said before I'd love us to get him but £75m is way too much

myself I don't think he has enough end product, fair enough Palace don't have much quality to gain from his crosses, but I still see him at his best when attacking space, though didn't see him much v us apart from the arm waving when he went down under little contact.

the bolded part could be the answer, only problem is I honestly don't see him joining a team and like being rotated. I honestly think if he came to us he would be one of the most frustrating players going. there have been times I've seen him play and make the wrong choice too often. he would either win us a few penalties or collect too many yellows for diving

 

[spurs9]

Outside of quoting goal/assist (shiny objects) stats I ask you to tell me something he does that is better than a slew of other players. I feel like I have had this same debate 3-4 years ago with folks about Tripps. they justified his transfer with assist/cross stats but neglected the fact that he was shit defender...and even after 4 years of coaching is still a shit defender. I just feel a bit of deja vu.

You cant see the difference/scope for improvement between an 18 year old (not sure why everyone is saying he is 19) and a 25 year old?

Scoring 16 goals in the championship at the age of 17, when playing over a 1/3 of the games at LB, including either scoring or assisting every goal Fulham scored in the play offs cant just be ignored.

Personally, I don't think he is ready to contribute to our 1st team yet, but is definitely worth investing in for the future if the price is right and we have Improved the other areas where we need to.

 

[fecka]

You cant see the difference/scope for improvement between an 18 year old (not sure why everyone is saying he is 19) and a 25 year old?

Scoring 16 goals in the championship at the age of 17, when playing over a 1/3 of the games at LB, including either scoring or assisting every goal Fulham scored in the play offs cant just be ignored.

Personally, I don't think he is ready to contribute to our 1st team yet, but is definitely worth investing in for the future if the price is right and we have Improved the other areas where we need to.

My biggest apprehensions about Sessegnon are:
- No one knows his best position. He's not good enough as an LB/WB as he has a poor of positioning and he's not technically proficient enough to be a striker or winger
- His close control and dribbling are not up to standard
- He's fast but not THAT fast
- He doesn't beat a man

He's a limited player and while some are staring blindly at stats, how young he is and how many goals he scored in the championship - while watching him I've barely seen anything to take note of other than a few good runs down the channel and a few decent crosses.

 

[heelspurs]

You cant see the difference/scope for improvement between an 18 year old (not sure why everyone is saying he is 19) and a 25 year old?

Ooo this is gonna be fun. For shits and giggle let's assume I can't. Can you delineate these for me in regards to technical fundamentals and basic defensive positioning? Let me know the things an 18yo can learn that a 25yo cannot. I will wait.

Scoring 16 goals in the championship at the age of 17, when playing over a 1/3 of the games at LB, including either scoring or assisting every goal Fulham scored in the play offs cant just be ignored.

Who said anyone was ignoring anything? What most have said, including me, is that these things should be contextualized. Shiny objects are only there for the easily entertained. Others realize that unless the player is Messi and has in fact dribbled 60 yards and made his own goal that others had an impact and look to a player's intrinsic qualities for a better understanding of the player. For me those intrinsic qualities leave a bit to be desired.

Personally, I don't think he is ready to contribute to our 1st team yet,

...but what about those goals? And why the staunch defense of what would equate to an academy player?

but is definitely worth investing in for the future if the price is right and we have Improved the other areas where we need to.

And if you read my posts I say exactly that...well, close to this. Fulham want more than he is worth. If it came to 15-20 then I probably would have no issue whatsoever...other than have we become fixated on a thing at one price and are getting stuck paying a price that we never would have if quoted initially. Happens frequently. If our fixation on Sessegnon prevents us from getting in a real difference maker at LB then that would be a shame. And at 30M there are probably a few of those out there.

 

[heelspurs]

My biggest apprehensions about Sessegnon are:
- No one knows his best position. He's not good enough as an LB/WB as he has a poor of positioning and he's not technically proficient enough to be a striker or winger
- His close control and dribbling are not up to standard
- He's fast but not THAT fast
- He doesn't beat a man

He's a limited player and while some are staring blindly at stats, how young he is and how many goals he scored in the championship - while watching him I've barely seen anything to take note of other than a few good runs down the channel and a few decent crosses.

How dare you suggest that someone should actually watch a player instead of reading box scores and stats. Burn the witch!!!!

Folks are saying he's fast but I would say he is Danny Rose fast. My point being that Danny is no slouch and fast enough to cover most wingers if he positions himself well or doesn't get too close or let them in behind. But pace is not a quality of his that I would pick out. It is average to above average modern FB pace. For Walker you would say pace is an attribute because he will not be outrun by anyone...except Ferland Mendy a LB that outstripped Walker multiple times and we perhaps should be looking at if Fulham don't play ball.

 

[DanielJohnCosta]

junior firpo > sessegnon every day and twice on sunday

 

[heelspurs]

junior firpo > sessegnon every day and twice on sunday

Oh, yes. Did you just watch the Betis game? Now that is a difference maker.

edit: He did have quite a bad injury this season that had him out a while but don't really remember what it was. But he has played the last 2 games I believe. I watched the Betis - Valencia (who I follow in La Liga) game and he was good if a little rusty.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

I don't think that is entirely true though, Palaces LB averages as many key passes per game as Rose (more than Davies and Aurier), which is 2.5 x more than Wan-Bissaka averages per game.

Van Arnolt? Is it. He's a very attacking player and has played in the Dutch team as a winger on occasion. I don't see enough of them, but from memory you are probably right with regard remit, maybe they lopside like we do with trippier. But yes the LB is attacking I concede.

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

A fair old amount regarding Sessegnon on this thread so here's my take on him.

Excellent temperament for a young lad, I don't like to focus on stats but his goal and assist return as an 18 year old against fully grown men playing the game across the two highest divisions in arguably the most competitive footballing country is something that cannot be ignored. Some may have been gimmes but you need to be in the position and sniff out the chances to notch those figures up.

He seemed to struggle at the start of the season, for a team that struggles it needs to be remembered and his return of 6 assists and a couple of goals is a decent transition from Championship where the best player is Grealish, a talented yet uncapped international player to a league where it's glittered with the finest players in the world bar a few plying their trade in other European leagues.

The thing I think gets vastly overlooked with Sessegnon is his excellent knowledge of where to kick the ball and how hard to move it past and across a player when taking them on to open space and prevent a sprinting contest with the oppositions defender. He cuts across well and with an easy on the eye look which I think could become a huge asset offering us something we struggle with, which is getting behind the oppositions back line which would add a new dimension to our team.

I'm on the fence as to what his ceiling could be and if we will see him kick on enough to warrant a long term option for us but his raw qualities tick enough boxes for me to want to see the club make an offer for him. Personally I'd like to see him come in with a view of being a potential left back or WF, depending on how he progresses and before anyone shoots me down both Danny Rose & Wan-Bissaka started off as wingers/ midfielders and shifted further back with time and development.

People forget that it took Walker a loan to Aston Villa & Rose a move to Sunderland before we saw them mature the skills required to make it into our first team. Sessegnon has the raw potential and is HG so it's a goer for me. Give the boy a chance and let's see what he's made of playing with better quality day in, day out

 

[seppo]

Marcos Llorente and Dani Ceballos are both more or less discarded by Zidane. I have watched both quite a lot and especially Ceballos is a world-class talent. Llorente has really stepped up the last year or so and not looked out of place at all in that RM midfield. In for a shout for any of them?