The England Thread

[muppetman]

Whilst the back line will get the headlines the real issue for me was in midfield. The reason we looked so shaky at the back was they looked to play a pass and there was nobody to give it to - this combined with Southgate instructing them not to hoof it up field is a recipe for disaster. The total absence of a midfield also meant that our better players - Kane, Sterling, Rashford and even Lingard barely saw the ball and by the time they did they were swarmed by a set Dutch defence.

The Dutch are fairly average and yet we made them look decent. We also cannot defend a set piece, which puts us on the back foot as we are always likely to concede and can't just sit back and defend and hope to hit them on the break.

The similarities between Spurs and England have always added to my general angst around football!

 

[Phomesy]

Stones has been doing it since Everton

Yeah I get that but there’s clearly an instruction to play out that’s beyond the technical and, perhaps more importantly, mental ability of England’s defence.

Or maybe it’s just Stones. But there’s an rashness about the decision making that points to instruction and players not able to use their fucking common sense.

 

[Phomesy]

No, it ain't the manager's fault. They don't order a player to do this 100% of the time. There may be a strategy/preference to play the ball out from defence, but it's up to the player to use his intelligence and discretion as to when, where and how to do this. Stones lost his concentration and focus in two key situations, and the game was gone.

Yeah you’re probably right.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

This is great, impending brawl between Carragher, Redknapp and Neville

 

[ardiles]

'Slightly off topic"
I didn't watch the match tonight - my season finished last Saturday night. But I did read elsewhere today that West Ham are about to do a double swoop for both Stones and Maguire.

It will probably cost them more than the 99 year lease for their stadium.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

That’s it Carragher... he’d rather see a suicidal pass at the back than a defender launching the ball... hmmm

 

[Romulus]

He should get an assist for the Dutch 3rd ?

yeah, he was so bad I actually forgot about that

 

[Sandros Shiny Head]

Yeah I get that but there’s clearly an instruction to play out that’s beyond the technical and, perhaps more importantly, mental ability of England’s defence.

Or maybe it’s just Stones. But there’s an rashness about the decision making that points to instruction and players not able to use their fucking common sense.

It’s clearly a manager led thing but Stones absolutely has no idea of his own ability and when the right time to do it is. Also the blame lies with the manager for picking him too

 

[Krule]

It’s clearly a manager led thing but Stones absolutely has no idea of his own ability and when the right time to do it is. Also the blame lies with the manager for picking him too

As we already learnt to our cost recently there's a difference between 'physically' and 'match' fit....but for me Stones just hasn't got it...needs sorting.

 

[DJS]

Lad.

 

[muppetman]

It’s clearly a manager led thing but Stones absolutely has no idea of his own ability and when the right time to do it is. Also the blame lies with the manager for picking him too

I guess the counter argument to that, is who else is English, a decent CB, can actually play football and not just hoof it out and is willing to take instuction? I'm trying to think of an English CB who plays for a top team - Joe Gomez????

 

[Sandros Shiny Head]

I guess the counter argument to that, is who else is English, a decent CB, can actually play football and not just hoof it out and is willing to take instuction? I'm trying to think of an English CB who plays for a top team - Joe Gomez????

Given that he was clueless at defending corners as well I’d say that even Jones would be better

 

[ohtottenham!]

Finally! All this week we were screaming for that headline, "Tottenham Player Scores!"

 

[Kingellesar]

I guess the counter argument to that, is who else is English, a decent CB, can actually play football and not just hoof it out and is willing to take instuction? I'm trying to think of an English CB who plays for a top team - Joe Gomez????

John Vertonghen

No but I agree, we are severely lacking in quality English centrebacks and its quite worrying. That and central midfielders.

 

[Timberwolf]

I think some of the backlash is a bit over the top. Gareth has instilled a real spirit in the team and, while it's not always functional, a style of play that is obvious and defined regardless of the personnel. That's a lot better than some of the aimless, bloated dross we've seen in previous years.

However, he's also got his limitations tactically. This high risk, build from the back, system is a bit one dimensional and when it works it can be lethal, but all it takes is a couple of players to be off their game (see Rashford, Chilwell, etc) and the whole things looks a bit disjointed and we give the ball away in dangerous areas.

We weren't very good today but we were still only a couple of inches from being ahead from a lovely move and the Dutch scored from 2 horrible errors and a corner. Fine margins really.

Overall I think this team is absolutely screaming out for a midfielder like Winks who can get a hold of the ball and keep control and tempo in the middle. Without that we're so reliant on these low percentage vertical balls that we don't really have the technique to pull off consistently.

I still have hope but I think Southgate needs to adapt tactically. He's looking like a bit of a one trick pony at the moment.

 

[muppetman]

Given that he was clueless at defending corners as well I’d say that even Jones would be better

I think in some ways this makes the point, whilst Phil "gurning" Jones might not have made this mistake he is clearly not a top level defender. We just don't have a lot to pick from at this point in time, which makes me feel it's harsh to blame the manager.

If we had the likes of De Ligt or Sanchez sitting off to one side itching for a chance, then fair enough, perhaps Stones has had his chances but in a world where we are picking Walker, Delph and Barkley I think we have to give Southgate some understanding that he doesn't have a huge talent pool to pick from.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

I think some of the backlash is a bit over the top. Gareth has instilled a real spirit in the team and while it's not always functional, a style of play that is obvious and defined regardless of the personnel. That's a lot better than some of the aimless, bloated dross we've seen in previous years.

However, he's also got his limitations tactically. This high risk, build from the back system is a bit one dimensional and when it works it can be lethal, but all it takes is a couple of players to be off their game (see Rashford, Chilwell, etc) and the whole things looks a bit disjointed and we give the ball away in dangerous areas.

We weren't very good today but we were only a couple of inches from being ahead from a lovely move and the Dutch scored from 2 horrible errors and a corner. Fine margins really.

Overall I think this team is absolutely screaming out for a midfielder like Winks who can get a hold of the ball and keep control and tempo in the middle. Without that we're so reliant on these low percentage vertical balls that we don't really have the technique to pull off consistently.

I still have hope but I think Southgate needs to adapt tactically. He's looking like a bit of a one trick Pony at the moment.

The problem is Southgate is inept at adapting... he failed to do it at the WC and when he was manager of my home town side (Middlesbrough) he was royally inept at adapting then also.

We’ve some very exciting youngsters but Southgate has contradicted himself by stating he picks players on form as opposed to ego/playing for a big club. Walker has been poor for City and Stones is just pants, yet they both make the team ahead of an in form Keane and an outstanding AA-T. Likewise with Delph and Barkley, ones predominantly played at LB and the other has been a squad player.

 

[topper]

Thought Winks had a great game tonight without actually playing !

 

[Shadydan]

Thought Winks had a great game tonight without actually playing !

When players enhance their reputations without even playing it's the sign of a good player.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

Thought Winks had a great game tonight without actually playing !

I’m not sure if my game plan went to plan... 2 bottles of wine, at work at 8am and now trying to navigate the stairs and not wake up my fiancée and 11 month old nephew ?