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The Daily ITK Discussion Thread 30th June

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SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,552
43,063
Or you could hope we get him and he's the next salah?

If that happens then brilliant. If we sign him and he flops, how long before Kane, Eriksen, Poch get twitchy about our ambitions, wondering 'have we hit the glass ceiling', etc...

Even if we pull off a 'statement signing' like Martial and it doesn't quite work out on the pitch, those same people are likely to still see the initial signing as a sign of the growth of the club and its ambitions. You may shrug stuff like that off but it's clear from that Rose interview last season that players do notice it.

Anyway as Herc said Plea is just one of many options so it's time to just kick back until the ITK starts coming through again, hopefully in a week or two. World Cup is definitely slowing things. I'm still hopeful we use our improved financial power and draw this summer to have a stronger squad come 9th August.
 

arthurgrimsdell

Well-Known Member
Feb 16, 2004
843
826
You open your post trashing my points and understanding of finances by suggesting that my wishes for us to push on this window equates to us signing Mbappe and Neymar (which would indeed kill us financially). It was pretty clear however that my complaints were clearly aimed at uscRy0GeN1cS". I think hyperbole is a completely fair rebuttal.

The rest of your post is fair and tallies with a lot of things I have praised Levy and the club for over the years, so is not a fair argument against me. My argument is simply what is the point of working up to this level, only to get here (likely the glass ceiling) and continue to work at the same level as before.

Please read the below and tell me why we should not expect to operate at a higher level this window and going forward (not at oil money or super club level, but at top 10 european club level, Liverpool/Arse/Juve/etc...):-

- Our turnover jumped from £210m in 2015/16 to £306m in 2016/17, projected 2017/18 turnover is well in excess of £350m. Liverpool sustained a wage budget of £200m (twice ours) on a turnover of £302m in 2015/16.
- We have just doubled the highest paid player and manager's wages, this was simply not possible previously.
- Our manager came out and challenged Levy to be more brave in the transfer market before signing said new deal. How does doing the exact same thing achieve that?
- We have publicly courted Martial and De Ligt at mooted club record fees, why waste our time on that if we could only afford the likes of Plea? It's clear we can now approach players of this profile and cost.
- The club is charging some of the highest ticket prices in Europe at the new stadium.
- Plus in respect of this window's expenditure alone, we are likely to see a serious influx of cash due to selling two more key players this window (Toby and Dembele). These fund should be available to reinvest this window.
- Both Poch and Kane have also intimated they will only stay here whilst our ambitions match theirs. This is why now is stick or twist (or shit or get off the pot as per @Grey Fox ).

I've said my piece on the whole situation now but I found your initial response frankly ridiculous, and I feel you are the one with the real 'lack of understanding' of our current financial situation compared to the past. In all likelihood I have over-reacted with the Plea news setting off the Deja Vu alarm, but I stand by the above. I have gone on record saying I still hope to see us make at least one impressive signing this summer, the above points suggest it's acceptable to be hopeful for it.
If you were basing your post merely on
You open your post trashing my points and understanding of finances by suggesting that my wishes for us to push on this window equates to us signing Mbappe and Neymar (which would indeed kill us financially). It was pretty clear however that my complaints were clearly aimed at us seemingly backing down from Martial to Plea. I think hyperbole is a completely fair rebuttal.

The rest of your post is fair and tallies with a lot of things I have praised Levy and the club for over the years, so is not a fair argument against me. My argument is simply what is the point of working up to this level, only to get here (likely the glass ceiling) and continue to work at the same level as before.

Please read the below and tell me why we should not expect to operate at a higher level this window and going forward (not at oil money or super club level, but at top 10 european club level, Liverpool/Arse/Juve/etc...):-

- Our turnover jumped from £210m in 2015/16 to £306m in 2016/17, projected 2017/18 turnover is well in excess of £350m. Liverpool sustained a wage budget of £200m (twice ours) on a turnover of £302m in 2015/16.
- We have just doubled the highest paid player and manager's wages, this was simply not possible previously.
- Our manager came out and challenged Levy to be more brave in the transfer market before signing said new deal. How does doing the exact same thing achieve that?
- We have publicly courted Martial and De Ligt at mooted club record fees, why waste our time on that if we could only afford the likes of Plea? It's clear we can now approach players of this profile and cost.
- The club is charging some of the highest ticket prices in Europe at the new stadium.
- Plus in respect of this window's expenditure alone, we are likely to see a serious influx of cash due to selling two more key players this window (Toby and Dembele). These fund should be available to reinvest this window.
- Both Poch and Kane have also intimated they will only stay here whilst our ambitions match theirs. This is why now is stick or twist (or shit or get off the pot as per @Grey Fox ).

I've said my piece on the whole situation now but I found your initial response frankly ridiculous, and I feel you are the one with the real 'lack of understanding' of our current financial situation compared to the past. In all likelihood I have over-reacted with the Plea news setting off the Deja Vu alarm, but I stand by the above. I have gone on record saying I still hope to see us make at least one impressive signing this summer, the above points suggest it's acceptable to be hopeful for it.
The post I was replying to started:

" king26 said:

taking risks does not mean blowing all our finances and becoming the next leeds united

Oh how I hate that statement. Something would have to go drastically wrong for us to 'do a Leeds', it really doesn't apply to us. We've been told there's money to spend, the huge jump in turnover also suggests so."

It's not clear to me that that refers to any particular players but you may have referred to them in your previous posts at some time. I stand by my comments about finances for the reasons I've given.
I was not replying to your posts over the years, but to that particular one.
Grey Fox's views allow for turnover increases, but not changes in profit levels, and take no account of the huge capital cost of the new stadium, the debt for which not only has to be serviced but paid back. His views on transfers I respect but take with a pinch of salt. He states that we have "publicly courted" some players, but in reality the club (rather than the media) have made no comment whatsoever on them. We shall see what actually happens. All ITK's referred to on this forum were taking what I thought of at the time as an excessively "optimistic" view of transactions in this window, (which is often the case at the start of a transfer window), but if they happened , and the club felt it could afford them, then no one would have been happier than I would have been.
In my opinion, the whole idea that the club is now in a completely different financial situation relative to its competitors, merely because the stadium is close to completion (which is really what the optimists are thinking), does not stack up. Over the next few years, if the club management continue to show the same level of expertise and prudence that they have since ENIC took the reins, then I would expect our competitive position to improve beyond measure, but as of now, unless an unprecedented Naming Rights deal is agreed, and there is also an infusion of new equity capital, then I don't see an immediate step change in our position, though a risk might be taken on a marquee signing to accompany the opening of the stadium. Otherwise, I'd expect some "creative" transfer dealings to improve our squad, but no vast increases in net expenditure.
Time will tell.
 

JonnySpurs

SC Veteran
Jun 4, 2004
5,345
12,398
I feel I have to make something very clear. For myself, I post as I hear and see it. Sometimes even more than that. Sess for example and his people have been down to us more than once. Always dependent on promotion. And I believe people with a bit of common would fathom this.

Martial and his people gave us more than hope, and Yanited did not close the door on us, and still have not. He also came down, and I can understand when HertfordYid got excited. We had firm first refusals on Kluivert & Lgit. We decided against the former, and the latter is complicated (very), plus Toby would have to be sold before we engaged with another CH. I am sure common sense is easy on that one.

We officially registered our interest in Plea, and others. But! We have not officially put an offer in! Because we have an interest does not mean it will develop further. All clubs do it, just to cover bases. It is not strictly about money! Citeh can pay over the odds, and then pay 350k in wages, and possibly the same in bonuses etc.

We are behind such clubs, and rightfully so. But! We WILL do good business, all to the agreement of Poch. I expect intelligent people to process information, and then place their expectations accordingly with utter CAUTION.

You will never hear me personally say ‘Done deal’. No way! Been around too long. And don’t even trust the ink in the pen, until it is officially confirmed etc. Even if I have much more information on the situation.

Thanks for this Herc, you shouldn't have to frequently reassure which I think you have certainly done a lot over the course of the window.

I've said many times that ITK should be treated as a bonus. We have no divine rights as fans to be privvy to such information and so we can't allow ourselves to get all wound about it, either in a positive or negative way.

Whether it be Marc Bananaman or Lyall Thomas on twitter.....who most will slate.....or Herc, JJ, Trix etc, I read all the ITK and enjoy it. If it sounds ridiculous then I'll laugh to myself and then move on but I won't get angry about it or tell that person they are a WUM.

IMO, we need to just try and relax a bit and what will be, will be.
 

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,059
6,516
Fees being allegedly demanded for our reported targets are clearly way too high. People at the club are paid handsomely to identify options without the sound of barrels being scraped.

Our priority should be replacing any departing Belgians with the same quality.

Totally agree. But the one thing with Toby is the replacement shouldn't stop Sanchez's progression. He needs all the minutes to learn better positioning. He will be immense.

Dembele a tough one. Our midfield dynamics will change without him. We lose the power and gain more forward thinking or we maintain the power and lose the on ball ability. I can't think of another player like him.[/QUOTE]

playing 60 games (hopefully) means we need cover and competition for places- especially sometimes playing 3 at the back. Given we have Dier, and I prefer him at CB, I really want the money spent at CM. We don't need to compare this player to MD, just make sure he can dominate either with Winks or Wanyama. Should be the key signing of the summer. I've just realised what thread I'm in, for will leave it there.
 

rebrab

Harry Cool
Jun 13, 2008
6,403
22,090
You guys panic too easily.

Arsenal have signed Leno and Lichtsteiner, neither of which would have impressed our fans.
Chelsea have signed nobody.
Liverpool have admittedly done some business in signing Fabinho, and tied up Salah this morning which has to be seen as great news for them.
City have signed nobody.
United have signed Fred, which seems to be seen as a good signing, and Dalot who is a good prospect.
The rest of the teams floating around the top half have barely made a signing between them, except Leicester and Watford.

It's not as though the other teams have got themselves settled squads this season. I'd argue that we've done better business than any of them by signing the best striker in the league, as well as arguably the best manager (is IMO) to long term contracts.

You can't take rumours as a measure of how hard we are working to make signings vs other clubs - we have just gone from one of the worst teams for keeping our business quiet to one of the best in the past few seasons.

Poch will be backed this summer.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
I dont know whether the site has a feature where it shows itk people as the most recent to reply or I have impeccable timing, either way if I'm honest I'd been disappointed with the links so far but Rebrab has just put it into perspective.
 

whitechina

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2012
4,227
9,094
You guys panic too easily.

Arsenal have signed Leno and Lichtsteiner, neither of which would have impressed our fans.
Chelsea have signed nobody.
Liverpool have admittedly done some business in signing Fabinho, and tied up Salah this morning which has to be seen as great news for them.
City have signed nobody.
United have signed Fred, which seems to be seen as a good signing, and Dalot who is a good prospect.
The rest of the teams floating around the top half have barely made a signing between them, except Leicester and Watford.

It's not as though the other teams have got themselves settled squads this season. I'd argue that we've done better business than any of them by signing the best striker in the league, as well as arguably the best manager (is IMO) to long term contracts.

You can't take rumours as a measure of how hard we are working to make signings vs other clubs - we have just gone from one of the worst teams for keeping our business quiet to one of the best in the past few seasons.

Poch will be backed this summer
.
I hope you are right
 

Flashspur

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2012
6,882
9,068
I haven’t visited this thread since page 1 a few days ago. Can’t believe some of the rubbish in here that’s been posted. Grow up ladies.

I am sure the club is looking at players. I for one have been underwhelmed by Martial and de Ligt as first options and even more so at the ridiculous prices being asked. I have seen better options in the WC. Too early to be losing your shit and panicking right now. There is time and lots of players we can move for. I am sure the club is working hard on this.

Personally, keep an open mind on players. Just because they are not on the wank list doesn’t mean they aren’t suitable and I trust Poch and Hitchin more then you lot :D
 
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Trippier the RB fantastic

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2017
223
788
Everyone needs to relax, there's no way Poch and Kane would have signed those new deals without promises from the board that we would be bringing in the required players to mount a title challenge.
Its not the clubs fault we are linked with players that are deemed below standard. Lets wait and see before we criticise.
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,552
43,063
If you were basing your post merely on

The post I was replying to started:

" king26 said:

taking risks does not mean blowing all our finances and becoming the next leeds united

Oh how I hate that statement. Something would have to go drastically wrong for us to 'do a Leeds', it really doesn't apply to us. We've been told there's money to spend, the huge jump in turnover also suggests so."

It's not clear to me that that refers to any particular players but you may have referred to them in your previous posts at some time. I stand by my comments about finances for the reasons I've given.
I was not replying to your posts over the years, but to that particular one.
Grey Fox's views allow for turnover increases, but not changes in profit levels, and take no account of the huge capital cost of the new stadium, the debt for which not only has to be serviced but paid back. His views on transfers I respect but take with a pinch of salt. He states that we have "publicly courted" some players, but in reality the club (rather than the media) have made no comment whatsoever on them. We shall see what actually happens. All ITK's referred to on this forum were taking what I thought of at the time as an excessively "optimistic" view of transactions in this window, (which is often the case at the start of a transfer window), but if they happened , and the club felt it could afford them, then no one would have been happier than I would have been.
In my opinion, the whole idea that the club is now in a completely different financial situation relative to its competitors, merely because the stadium is close to completion (which is really what the optimists are thinking), does not stack up. Over the next few years, if the club management continue to show the same level of expertise and prudence that they have since ENIC took the reins, then I would expect our competitive position to improve beyond measure, but as of now, unless an unprecedented Naming Rights deal is agreed, and there is also an infusion of new equity capital, then I don't see an immediate step change in our position, though a risk might be taken on a marquee signing to accompany the opening of the stadium. Otherwise, I'd expect some "creative" transfer dealings to improve our squad, but no vast increases in net expenditure.
Time will tell.

You make some good points, but I fully stand by my opinion on the importance of having a strong window this summer.

Martial and De Ligt would have been the kind of moves I am hoping for. Other links such as Malcom or Pulisic would also fall into that bracket for me. We are talking about some the best young prospects in Europe watched by all of the top clubs (much like Davinson Sanchez was last summer). A net spend of circa £50-80m would surely not cause us to 'do a Leeds'. Our pre-tax profits for 2016/17 were £58m alone. The reason for 'why now?' is that our most valuable assets need to be shown ambition for the current project to continue smoothly. I personally believe Levy will be aware of this and it's why I'm optimistic for the window still. I guess I am putting more weight into that than you are, which is fair enough.

That we were able to compete in 2016/17 with a wage bill of ~60% of Liverpool and Arsenal, and under 50% of the Manchester clubs is quite the testament to Levy and Co, but to think we could maintain that success over a sustained period is fanciful. I believe that the club has realised this with the large pay rises for Kane and Poch and the raft of other contract renewals mooted. This shift in wage budget is far from the 'same old, same old' and I'm delighted it by it. The large recent increases in all forms of turnover will allow us to maintain our very healthy Wages to Profit ratio whilst allowing for a wage bill much closer to the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool than ever before. As evidenced by Spurs' and Liverpool's best players both signing £200k per week deals recently.

Servicing the debt will be an issue for us but naming rights will be a whole new revenue stream which will hopefully cover the annual cost of the loan interest at the very least. Back when Arsenal were crippled by stadium debt annual revenues were a fraction of what they are now, not to mention the contributions we have already made to our stadium project over the last few years which they did not have the luxury of.

Obviously this is very simplified view and you have shown a good knowledge of financial affairs, but I think you are taking the counter view as being a lot less realistic that what it really is. Last season we spent over £110m on 5 first team players. A gross spend of say £160m is not too far of a reach in those terms, especially of the sales of Toby and Dembele pending. Scope for us to break our transfer record more than once this window. We are seemingly looking at 3-4 players for the window, dependant on the outgoings. Now is the time for quality over quantity, and my opinion is there must be better options out there than Plea in our available price range. Herc and Rebrab's recent posts seem to be suggesting that is still very much the case which is encouraging.

I respect your stance and I have a feeling the truth will lie somewhere between my optimism and your pessimism. I hope we are both happy come 9th August! Up the Spurs
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,337
329,028
People need to chill. This is how we operate, and we will be just fine. If we can do things early we will but as I keep saying last 3 weeks or so is where we will do the bulk of our business because that is where the value is, and if things go to plan it will only be outgoings in the final week. I still expect us to break our transfer record this Summer and we are confident of getting in the players to improve us..

Grealish could happen at any time, everything is in place, just need the clubs to agree the upfront fee. We are not as far apart as some of the media outlets are saying, and although Villa managed to beg steal and borrow enough to get them through last month, they are still sinking deeper and deeper into the mire.
 

spursgirls

SC Supporter
Aug 13, 2008
19,166
38,965
I haven’t visited this thread since page 1 a few days ago. Can’t believe some of the rubbish in here that’s been posted. Grow up ladies.

I am sure the club is looking at players. I for one have been underwhelmed by Martial and de Ligt as first options and even more so at the ridiculous prices being asked. I have seen better options in the WC. Too early to be losing your shit and panicking right now. There is time and lots of players we can move for. I am sure the club is working hard on this.

Personally, keep an open mind on players. Just because they are not on the wank list doesn’t mean they aren’t suitable and I trust Poch and Hitchin more then you lot :D
Oi, the ladies have been impeccably behaved!

I mean the females @tiger666 !!
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,552
43,063
You guys panic too easily.

Arsenal have signed Leno and Lichtsteiner, neither of which would have impressed our fans.
Chelsea have signed nobody.
Liverpool have admittedly done some business in signing Fabinho, and tied up Salah this morning which has to be seen as great news for them.
City have signed nobody.
United have signed Fred, which seems to be seen as a good signing, and Dalot who is a good prospect.
The rest of the teams floating around the top half have barely made a signing between them, except Leicester and Watford.

It's not as though the other teams have got themselves settled squads this season. I'd argue that we've done better business than any of them by signing the best striker in the league, as well as arguably the best manager (is IMO) to long term contracts.

You can't take rumours as a measure of how hard we are working to make signings vs other clubs - we have just gone from one of the worst teams for keeping our business quiet to one of the best in the past few seasons.

Poch will be backed this summer.

People need to chill. This is how we operate, and we will be just fine. If we can do things early we will but as I keep saying last 3 weeks or so is where we will do the bulk of our business because that is where the value is, and if things go to plan it will only be outgoings in the final week. I still expect us to break our transfer record this Summer and we are confident of getting in the players to improve us..

Grealish could happen at any time, everything is in place, just need the clubs to agree the upfront fee. We are not as far apart as some of the media outlets are saying, and although Villa managed to beg steal and borrow enough to get them through last month, they are still sinking deeper and deeper into the mire.


Great to see further reassurance from you guys. I'm still optimistic for what is an important window but you must admit some of the reaction to Martial>Plea is kinda understandable based on past windows, with the limited info we have. Long way to go yet! Cheers @Trix @Hercules and @rebrab
 

StevePil

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2006
2,963
3,735
I think it is fair for the negativity on here, yes some is over the top but we hear the same every summer and I really don't think it is going to change anytime soon (until the stadium is paid off anyway)

I think the way we have been going with "cheaper" options has worked for us (top 4 for 3 seasons on trot) so whilst ITK is not as good as it was in Jan about deals and lessons being learned, I have remained optimistic throughout and will wait for the deals to be done before getting excited or carried away and suggest a lot of you need to do the same.

The only one I do get excited about is when JJ comes as he seems to be close to when a signing is actually about to be made (no disrespect to the others) but you all scared him away after Balde last summer

Keep believing and hopefully we will do something exciting this summer, we usually get min 1 good one every summer - last year being Sanchez for those who may question this statement

we all want the same for this club and win stuff and we know we need a stronger squad for this and something different but we are not at that level yet and wont be for a while IMO....
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
No offence Hercs, but really wasn't 'dreaming' about Tierney.
Great to see further reassurance from you guys. I'm still optimistic for what is an important window but you must admit some of the reaction to Martial>Plea is kinda understandable based on past windows, with the limited info we have. Long way to go yet! Cheers @Trix @Hercules and @rebrab


If the trade off for losing out on Martial and signing Plea is that we have a proper wedge to splurge on a real top quality CM I'll happily take that. No pun intended but wouldn't mind one Real CM in particular.
 
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