Standing At Games

jimbo

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I think we will have to agree to disagree I'm affraid
We can do that, you've mentioned it plenty of times now and seem to be the only person who is worried about it. Having been to the top of the South Upper I think it's nonsense to suggest that there is any danger of human dominoes. It's also quite a leap to think that the stadium would have been designed, built and signed off if there was any possibility of it.

At least two people with direct experience of the area in question have explained why it's not a problem, yet you remain convinced. No doubt you believe you are right, but perhaps you want it to be the case because the fear of it helps justify your feelings about standing - perhaps subconciously rather than conciously.

If we agree to disagree does that mean you'll stop bringing it up?
 

THFCSPURS19

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We can do that, you've mentioned it plenty of times now and seem to be the only person who is worried about it. Having been to the top of the South Upper I think it's nonsense to suggest that there is any danger of human dominoes. It's also quite a leap to think that the stadium would have been designed, built and signed off if there was any possibility of it.

At least two people with direct experience of the area in question have explained why it's not a problem, yet you remain convinced. No doubt you believe you are right, but perhaps you want it to be the case because the fear of it helps justify your feelings about standing - perhaps subconciously rather than conciously.

If we agree to disagree does that mean you'll stop bringing it up?
I'm in the South Upper as well and any suggestion it's dangerous is complete and utter bollocks.
 

Lighty64

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We can do that, you've mentioned it plenty of times now and seem to be the only person who is worried about it. Having been to the top of the South Upper I think it's nonsense to suggest that there is any danger of human dominoes. It's also quite a leap to think that the stadium would have been designed, built and signed off if there was any possibility of it.

At least two people with direct experience of the area in question have explained why it's not a problem, yet you remain convinced. No doubt you believe you are right, but perhaps you want it to be the case because the fear of it helps justify your feelings about standing - perhaps subconciously rather than conciously.

If we agree to disagree does that mean you'll stop bringing it up?
Okay please picture this, just a little bit. Everyone is buzzing some have had 3 or 4 pints before they get to the ground. Not everyone is 5ft and a bit and weigh nothing. Everyone is standing bouncing around making the noise you can only dream of. If the 6ft 3 overweight idiot standing at the top falls forward the person in front when he is falling forward is not going to hear a thing of warning, they fall into the person in front at full pelt, are you telling me that person in front who might be smaller, not over weight isn’t going to fall forwards too?

Edit: it was built for sitting, that is why they put standing rails at the lower tier to stop people falling forward, and that’s not steep
 
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jimbo

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Okay please picture this, just a little bit. Everyone is buzzing some have had 3 or 4 pints before they get to the ground. Not everyone is 5ft and a bit and weigh nothing. Everyone is standing bouncing around making the noise you can only dream of. If the 6ft 3 overweight idiot standing at the top falls forward the person in front when he is falling forward is not going to hear a thing of warning, they fall into the person in front at full pelt, are you telling me that person in front who might be smaller, not over weight isn’t going to fall forwards too?
The problem with this scenario is that the falling giant at the back would have to a) make no attempt to stop themselves from falling, which is unnatural, and b) fall with enough momentum to clear the row of seats in front. To create the effect you describe there would need to be no barriers all the way down several rows, and much tighter/narrower rows in order for even a very large and heavy person to cause an avalanche. There is plenty of space and a handy barrier (the backs of the seats) so that if someone where to fall forwards rather than down they would be prevented from setting off a chain reaction. The seats in front would fold you in half, the backs are high enough to stop anyone.

Having played a lot of rugby I know what it takes in terms of momentum to knock people over and how they fall. Even if, for a hypothetical, I were to run up and knock you over targetting you below your centre of gravity then I might be able to get you to clear the row of seats in front of us. But our forward progress would be stopped by the cushion of people in the row below and the hard barrier of the seats in front of them. Anyone falling under their own momentum even if they made no attempt to stop themselves (highly unlikely) wouldn't be able to overcome the inertia of seats and people - like a human airbag. For a human avalanche to work you would need the momentum to increase down the rows, which isn't physically possible as even clattering into someone unawares has a cushioning effect - particularly when, if you fell into me from a row behind, you would make contact high above my centre of gravity.

And all of that makes no allowance for the people around you who would try to stop you falling and hurting yourself. If I was next to you I would naturally try to catch you and hold you back, further taking away momentum - I might not stop you completely, but I would certainly slow you down and hopefully stop you from hurting yourself when you hit the concrete. Similarly, if you had a group of people who all fell together at the same time they reduce each other's momentum. The greater your mass, the greater the effect of gravity, which pulls straight down and not at the slanting angle required. A great tumble of bodies, for which there isn't enough space anyway, would collapse between the rows and seats before it got anywhere. If there weren't any seats or other barrier it might be possible, but there are so it isn't.

It's just not possible under the laws of physics.
 

Lighty64

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The problem with this scenario is that the falling giant at the back would have to a) make no attempt to stop themselves from falling, which is unnatural, and b) fall with enough momentum to clear the row of seats in front. To create the effect you describe there would need to be no barriers all the way down several rows, and much tighter/narrower rows in order for even a very large and heavy person to cause an avalanche. There is plenty of space and a handy barrier (the backs of the seats) so that if someone where to fall forwards rather than down they would be prevented from setting off a chain reaction. The seats in front would fold you in half, the backs are high enough to stop anyone.

Having played a lot of rugby I know what it takes in terms of momentum to knock people over and how they fall. Even if, for a hypothetical, I were to run up and knock you over targetting you below your centre of gravity then I might be able to get you to clear the row of seats in front of us. But our forward progress would be stopped by the cushion of people in the row below and the hard barrier of the seats in front of them. Anyone falling under their own momentum even if they made no attempt to stop themselves (highly unlikely) wouldn't be able to overcome the inertia of seats and people - like a human airbag. For a human avalanche to work you would need the momentum to increase down the rows, which isn't physically possible as even clattering into someone unawares has a cushioning effect - particularly when, if you fell into me from a row behind, you would make contact high above my centre of gravity.

And all of that makes no allowance for the people around you who would try to stop you falling and hurting yourself. If I was next to you I would naturally try to catch you and hold you back, further taking away momentum - I might not stop you completely, but I would certainly slow you down and hopefully stop you from hurting yourself when you hit the concrete. Similarly, if you had a group of people who all fell together at the same time they reduce each other's momentum. The greater your mass, the greater the effect of gravity, which pulls straight down and not at the slanting angle required. A great tumble of bodies, for which there isn't enough space anyway, would collapse between the rows and seats before it got anywhere. If there weren't any seats or other barrier it might be possible, but there are so it isn't.

It's just not possible under the laws of physics.
when I stand up the seat in front of me is knee height, when people stand that don't position themselves standing directly with their own seat behind them.

you obviously ain't old enough to remember standing
 

jimbo

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when I stand up the seat in front of me is knee height, when people stand that don't position themselves standing directly with their own seat behind them.

you obviously ain't old enough to remember standing
That's still high enough to stop an avalanche. If you take someone out from the knees or below they don't go flying through the air, they crumple where they are.

Yeah, I've never stood at a football match before. :cautious:
 

vicbob

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Can one of the mods change the name of this thread from "Standing at games" to "Falling over and the laws of Physics at games" please, thanks.
 

whitesocks

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Is the south stand any steeper than the upper tiers in the old park lane or paxton?
Both of those stands would have been pretty close to the maximum steepness.

OK people mostly sat in those old areas, but part of the upper Park lane was given to the away support every now and then I think, and they would have stood and there were no incidents of cascading avalanches of death that I recall.
 

Saoirse

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Is the south stand any steeper than the upper tiers in the old park lane or paxton?
Both of those stands would have been pretty close to the maximum steepness.

OK people mostly sat in those old areas, but part of the upper Park lane was given to the away support every now and then I think, and they would have stood and there were no incidents of cascading avalanches of death that I recall.
If anything I'd say this is safer. There have been very, very occasional incidents at other grounds of people falling out of the upper tier (I think at Bolton once I remember?). That obviously can't happen in a single-tier end.
 

Yid121

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So railseating we can stand at "persistently" in the south stand

Begs the question why the club didn't make a larger area for the rail seats
 

coopsieyid

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So railseating we can stand at "persistently" in the south stand

Begs the question why the club didn't make a larger area for the rail seats

Could be a multitude of reasons. Planning permission, health & safety, stadium design, supply & demand, cost...
 

Lighty64

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I'll be there tonight, sitting down all night, undisturbed views in the South Stand, and still sing my heart out(y)
 

riggi

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Sat down tonight again and the atmosphere was shit. 10 year old (literally) Brighton kid taking the piss. Not worth a grand this.

Saturday will be very telling.
 

chrissivad

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So railseating we can stand at "persistently" in the south stand

Begs the question why the club didn't make a larger area for the rail seats
If and hopefully when safe standing comes in, I'm sure it will start with a small section of grounds.
Could be we didn't see the need to install any extra at this point, but I'm sure it would be easy enough to turn extra areas into safe standing when needed.
 

stov

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I'll be there tonight, sitting down all night, undisturbed views in the South Stand, and still sing my heart out(y)
you can do that at home, or any of the other stands. What's the point in having a white wall if we are forced to sit for the majority of the time.

It's not the same atmosphere, anyone says otherwise is being slightly dishonest there was a palpable difference in noise level tonight compared to palace.
 

Lighty64

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you can do that at home, or any of the other stands. What's the point in having a white wall if we are forced to sit for the majority of the time.

It's not the same atmosphere, anyone says otherwise is being slightly dishonest there was a palpable difference in noise level tonight compared to palace.
I’m disabled and where they put us in the south, you can’t be blocked off. Yet the area for disabled in the north means getting up every time we attack the Paxton end. A big difference in the pain mood after
 

wrd

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I've come up with a solution to all the problems. if we chant, stand up if you hate Arsenal for 90 minutes then there can be no complaints. You're welcome.
 

stov

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I’m disabled and where they put us in the south, you can’t be blocked off. Yet the area for disabled in the north means getting up every time we attack the Paxton end. A big difference in the pain mood after
You are not actually the problem for those who want to stand in the south stand as your view is unaffected by either way.
 

neilp

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Sat down tonight again and the atmosphere was shit. 10 year old (literally) Brighton kid taking the piss. Not worth a grand this.

Saturday will be very telling.
Your just pissed off at the 10 year old taking the piss out of you...
 
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