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Stability breeds confidence.

sparx100

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2007
4,612
6,646
In my mind, Ramos has to pick a formation, and a team and stick with them for a period of time. This is the only way I can see the team becoming more confident and playing the way that they should.

Chopping and changing after each result does not instill confidence into the players. I am not saying that players should think that they are guaranteed a game and be picked regardless, but rotating your team to play the opposition (as I think Ramos does), rather than picking your own team is not right for this moment in time.

Personally, I prefer a 4-4-2, but I think that a 4-5-1 can work if employed correctly.

-----------Gomes,
Gunter Corluka Woodgate Bale
Bentley Zoko (sit.....!) Modric Lennon
--------Bent Campbell

----------Gomes
Gunter Corluka Woodgate Bale
----------Zoko
Bentley Jenas Modric Lennon
----------Bent

Playing Lennon on the left does not matter - he cannot cross anyway. It is his pace which is the important thing. Push the fullback back - keep the pressure on the opposition.

Bentley on the right is important too. We spent £15million on him and he has played in all positions on the park. Let him get his rhythm back on the right and he will flourish.

Zoko must learn to sit and cover the fullbacks when they go forward (especially in a 4-5-1). His runs forward are what Modric and Jenas should do, but are too afraid to because Zoko will be up there joining them!

In my mind for a midfield 3 Zoko should hold and pass simple to Modric who ups the tempo within the midfield, whereby Jenas should be linking up and supporting the striker in the box as much as possible.

King is causing issues for the club. We need to keep the defence the same. Bringing King in for a game here and there is not going to work at the moment.

Maybe this has turned into a rant, and I know we are in a sorry position, but a couple of wins and we will be moving in the right direction. I just think that the team needs to be stable in order to do it.
 

Shanks

Kinda not anymore....
May 11, 2005
31,159
18,914
Actually the full backs should be getting up and down and the midfielders above should learn to cover, with zoko shoring up the gap between defence and midfield, braeking up the opposing play.
 

AngerManagement

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2004
12,518
2,739
Zokora needs his role more defined, he plays like a jack of all trades and as a result is constantly out of postion running around like a headless chicken which leaves us frail and teams can carve through us with ease.

To me his best games are when he plays a more diciplined role (such as against Chelsea away)

I dont think he is unable to be a good performer, just that left to his own devises he tries to do too much and in his case im sure less is more.

The are still room for his surging runs forward (so long as Jenas or whoever covers him) if he learns to look up more and see the simply ball to release an attacking player when he reaches the final third.
 

sparx100

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2007
4,612
6,646
Actually the full backs should be getting up and down and the midfielders above should learn to cover, with zoko shoring up the gap between defence and midfield, braeking up the opposing play.

I think that if for instance Bale went forward, then Lennon should be supporting and vice-versa (at appropriate times). If Bale goes forward, then you don't expect Lennon to drop too far back surely? We would lose our advantage on the fullback.

Or are you saying that the central midfield should sit?
 

AngerManagement

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2004
12,518
2,739
I think that if for instance Bale went forward, then Lennon should be supporting and vice-versa (at appropriate times). If Bale goes forward, then you don't expect Lennon to drop too far back surely? We would lose our advantage on the fullback.

Or are you saying that the central midfield should sit?

The players should be in a postion to be reactive, depending on where their players are so that we are ready to cover our exposed postions should they counter.

Maybe Lennon is forward supporting Bale's attack so King has an eye on the space left by Bale and is ready to move over there to nulify an attack there
(in turn Zokora is ready to drop back to cover King and pick up the runs of their attacks through the middle, as Jenas has bust a gut to get back to protect the centre from their advancing midfielders who have had the same distance to run from they were defending against us first)
 

DEFchenkOE

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2006
10,527
8,052
Agree that whatever the system, Ramos needs to pick it and stick with it for at least the next 5 games. So whether it is 4-4-2/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 he needs to just pick one and stick with it. Only confident teams can rotate their line-ups and systems and still have fluid play. Agree that Zoko has to be given a defined role, none of that marauding forward and leaving a massive gap in central midfield. I've said many times that at the moment my preference is for us to play a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 system. Just don't think we have the midfield for 4-4-2. But either just pick a formation and stick to it. If we are to play 4-4-2, then definitely has to be Bentley RM and Lennon LM, Zoko DM and JJ and Modric battling for the other CM slot. Also I believe the King situation is seriously affecting us and the club just keep so quiet about this. Why after the 2 week international break was he not able to play in the league, but able to play 3 days later in the Uefa. I think Corluka has the potential to be our best DM but the King situation just messes this up completely. If he can't play league games then he should just be on the bench and used as 3rd choice cb. This has been going on way too long.
 

Dr Know

SC Supporter
Aug 21, 2008
11,492
9,306
Now the worrying thing here is, if we can see this problem and how to fix it why the hell can't Ramos & Co.
Its been said so many times on forums in the news even by previous and other managers.
My gut feeling is Ramos is a stubborn dude and he won't change his style, we will still see the same thing at Stoke and be lucky to come away with a 0-0 draw (I hope to god I'm wrong)
 

RichieS

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2004
11,916
16,436
I'd stick with the team we fielded on Sunday (with Bentley coming in for Campbell and Lennon switching to the left). Yes, we lost to Hull BUT it was definitely the best we've played all season and we really didn't deserve to lose. We were creating chances and completely in charge of the match. The midfield seemed to be developing a good understanding with each other - I thought they were all good. Charlie and Woody always look solid to me and Bale and Gunter are both more than capable Premiership fullbacks. As Modric settles in Bent will get more of the service he requires to start scoring goals.

I was encouraged by what I saw on Sunday and think that we should stick with the formation and the personnel I've mentioned above. That way they'll all find form together and we can start climbing the table.
 

van_Pommel

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2004
3,061
971
Stability is the key, and a consistant formation and team selection where possible should, in time, see the team begin to form an understanding.

Looking at the squad, a 451 seems the formation which will alow us to get the most out of the players we have. However, this we need to make it an attacking formation, as we have been very negative when using this formation so far. Really, it needs to be a 433 most of the time.

-----------------------------Gomes--------------------------

--Gunter/Hutton-----Corluka--------Woodgate---------Bale----

--------------Jenas--------Zokora--------Modric--------------

--------------Lennon-------Bent---------dos Santos----------

This to me is our strongest current line up, taking form and injuries into account.

Defence: Ledley needs to be dropped to third choice to allow Corluka and Woody to get used to playing together. Corluka is not as good a right back as Gunter so there is no need to play him there. Bale is probably the best player at the club on current form so his forward runs up the left wing will cause a big threat.

Midfield: JJ, Zokora and Modric are our 3 best midfielders. I do have soft spots for O'Hara and Huddlestone but at the moment there's just no room for them in the starting XI and this is no time to be sentimental. Zokora needs to be told to sit in front of the back 4, break up attacks and be available for an easy pass. For a player of his athletisism this should be the perfect role, and we saw him do it very well at the Bridge. JJ and Modric then have licence to play box to box, get stuck in and influence the game.

Forwards: In Lennon and Gio we have 2 players with real pace and trickery who would worry most Premiership defences. Currently, I dont feel we play them far enough forward, which is why the front man always seems iscolated. They need to be exploiting the space out wide and making runs into the box when the ball is played forward. They also need to be closer to the front man when the ball is played long and following up the second balls. We will of course have the option of swapping Lennon and Gio during the game to mix things up a bit. I left Bentley out as on current form Lennon is the more effective, this may well change as the weeks go by. However Bentley will offer a different kind of threat and could also come in for Jenas if need be. This system should suit Bent, he's not the best at holding the ball up but he runs the channels well and once he starts scoring consistantly his confidence will return and I think we'll see a different player. When Pav returns he'll also be able to fit in well here.

I know 433 is a difficult tactic to get right, and there is a part of me that says 'play it safe with a 442'. The problems we have are that we dont have a world class CM which every top team has, we dont have a LW, and we are lacking depth up front. I feel playing a 433 could solve these problems.

I doubt many people will be assed to read all this I got a bit carried away, oh well at least its wasted 20mins of work.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,890
45,039
:)
Stability is the key, and a consistant formation and team selection where possible should, in time, see the team begin to form an understanding.

Looking at the squad, a 451 seems the formation which will alow us to get the most out of the players we have. However, this we need to make it an attacking formation, as we have been very negative when using this formation so far. Really, it needs to be a 433 most of the time.

-----------------------------Gomes--------------------------

--Gunter/Hutton-----Corluka--------Woodgate---------Bale----

--------------Jenas--------Zokora--------Modric--------------

--------------Lennon-------Bent---------dos Santos----------

This to me is our strongest current line up, taking form and injuries into account.

Defence: Ledley needs to be dropped to third choice to allow Corluka and Woody to get used to playing together. Corluka is not as good a right back as Gunter so there is no need to play him there. Bale is probably the best player at the club on current form so his forward runs up the left wing will cause a big threat.

Midfield: JJ, Zokora and Modric are our 3 best midfielders. I do have soft spots for O'Hara and Huddlestone but at the moment there's just no room for them in the starting XI and this is no time to be sentimental. Zokora needs to be told to sit in front of the back 4, break up attacks and be available for an easy pass. For a player of his athletisism this should be the perfect role, and we saw him do it very well at the Bridge. JJ and Modric then have licence to play box to box, get stuck in and influence the game.

Forwards: In Lennon and Gio we have 2 players with real pace and trickery who would worry most Premiership defences. Currently, I dont feel we play them far enough forward, which is why the front man always seems iscolated. They need to be exploiting the space out wide and making runs into the box when the ball is played forward. They also need to be closer to the front man when the ball is played long and following up the second balls. We will of course have the option of swapping Lennon and Gio during the game to mix things up a bit. I left Bentley out as on current form Lennon is the more effective, this may well change as the weeks go by. However Bentley will offer a different kind of threat and could also come in for Jenas if need be. This system should suit Bent, he's not the best at holding the ball up but he runs the channels well and once he starts scoring consistantly his confidence will return and I think we'll see a different player. When Pav returns he'll also be able to fit in well here.

I know 433 is a difficult tactic to get right, and there is a part of me that says 'play it safe with a 442'. The problems we have are that we dont have a world class CM which every top team has, we dont have a LW, and we are lacking depth up front. I feel playing a 433 could solve these problems.

I doubt many people will be assed to read all this I got a bit carried away, oh well at least its wasted 20mins of work.

I read it Van and it makes perfect sense to me, I've posted before that Ledley should be cover for the regular CD partnership of Woodgate and Corluka
Zokora JJ & Modric yes, I've said Ohara for Zokora but thats building for the future but either will do with Zokora/Ohara behind the other two.

From then on the 451 - 433 is quite a fluid formation which is why it can take time to get right, with 442 you know where you are and what you are meant to do with this system you need to understand the state of play read the game and know when it requires 451 and when to go 433 all through the game. Of course their are some teams who go 451 and hold it all day long but they are boring buggers.
All of which is basically what you said but at least proves I read it:grin:.
 

van_Pommel

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2004
3,061
971
:)

I read it Van and it makes perfect sense to me, I've posted before that Ledley should be cover for the regular CD partnership of Woodgate and Corluka
Zokora JJ & Modric yes, I've said Ohara for Zokora but thats building for the future but either will do with Zokora/Ohara behind the other two.

From then on the 451 - 433 is quite a fluid formation which is why it can take time to get right, with 442 you know where you are and what you are meant to do with this system you need to understand the state of play read the game and know when it requires 451 and when to go 433 all through the game. Of course their are some teams who go 451 and hold it all day long but they are boring buggers.
All of which is basically what you said but at least proves I read it:grin:.

Cheers pal.

I know what you mean about the teams that play 451 all the time, I'd hate us to do that. It needs to be 433 most of the time. I'm sure Gio and Lennon would be over the moon to be given this sort of role, and JJ and Modric would appreciate having a holding midfielder alongside them as a safety net. On paper, in my head, and on Fifa, it works really well. In reality it might be a different story, but at the moment it looks the best option to me.
 

stevenurse

Palacios' neck fat
May 14, 2007
6,089
10,022
Im just hoping Luka turns into the player we know he can, of course you dont become a bad player overnight but apart from a great ball to send bent through against hull he was awful.

I cant see why bent was on the bench too, seems like the players who were performing during pre-season have been binned-off to the bench and the form they had coming into the season has been lost. Bentley, Bent, Dos Santos especially.

Hutton will give us the overlapping on the right when he returns and if Bale is played at Left back he can also go forward and support lennon, Gio etc. I think we have missed Hutton a lot more than people have realised, he really is class.
 

VegasII

Well-Known Member
May 14, 2008
9,750
16,670
Hutton will also add a bit more fight & personality to the team & dressing room. I'd like to think he'll be up for the challange of getting us out of the hole we're in.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,890
45,039
Im just hoping Luka turns into the player we know he can, of course you dont become a bad player overnight but apart from a great ball to send bent through against hull he was awful.

I cant see why bent was on the bench too, seems like the players who were performing during pre-season have been binned-off to the bench and the form they had coming into the season has been lost. Bentley, Bent, Dos Santos especially.

Hutton will give us the overlapping on the right when he returns and if Bale is played at Left back he can also go forward and support lennon, Gio etc. I think we have missed Hutton a lot more than people have realised, he really is class.

I don't think it's fair to say he was awful he started like he wanted to get involved but was a bit cagey, he then grew into it and had a good game, I'll grant you most of what he tried didn't come off but in the prem 5 - 10% off your normal form can make that happen, in other words with just a little improvement in form we will see a great improvemnet in effectiveness.
Looking forward to see Hutton back too.
 

Hoowl

Dr wHo(owl)
Staff
Aug 18, 2005
6,526
266
Looking at the squad, a 451 seems the formation which will alow us to get the most out of the players we have. However, this we need to make it an attacking formation, as we have been very negative when using this formation so far. Really, it needs to be a 433 most of the time.

-----------------------------Gomes--------------------------

--Gunter/Hutton-----Corluka--------Woodgate---------Bale----

--------------Jenas--------Zokora--------Modric--------------

--------------Lennon-------Bent---------dos Santos----------

This to me is our strongest current line up, taking form and injuries into account.

I'd like to give that lineup a try but I'm worried where the goals will come from. In the Chelsea 433 the wing forwards had to offer a goalscoring threat. Robben was the best example. Lennon doesn't do this and it's too soon to say whether Dos Santos will. This means we're putting a lot of pressure on Bent scoring and the risk is, as we saw against Chelsea, he can get isolated and the defence can crowd him out of the game. There is the possibility that Modric and Jenas will get goals from midfield but with Lennon and GDS offering little defensively they will have their fair share of defensive duties to do and could find it hard to get forward and support.

I was actually pretty happy with the lineup Ramos used at the weekend against Hull:

-----------------Gomes
Gunter ---Corluka ----Woodgate Bale
Lennon --Zokora -Jenas -Modric
-----------Pav --------Campbell

Although I might be tempted to play Bent and GDS up top.
 

van_Pommel

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2004
3,061
971
I'd like to give that lineup a try but I'm worried where the goals will come from. In the Chelsea 433 the wing forwards had to offer a goalscoring threat. Robben was the best example. Lennon doesn't do this and it's too soon to say whether Dos Santos will. This means we're putting a lot of pressure on Bent scoring and the risk is, as we saw against Chelsea, he can get isolated and the defence can crowd him out of the game. There is the possibility that Modric and Jenas will get goals from midfield but with Lennon and GDS offering little defensively they will have their fair share of defensive duties to do and could find it hard to get forward and support.

I was actually pretty happy with the lineup Ramos used at the weekend against Hull:

-----------------Gomes
Gunter ---Corluka ----Woodgate Bale
Lennon --Zokora -Jenas -Modric
-----------Pav --------Campbell

Although I might be tempted to play Bent and GDS up top.

The interesting thing with your formation is that if you were to swap Gio in for Campbell then the natural progression during a game would be that Lennon would push on and Modric would move inside, creating a 433. Lennon as an attacking winger and Modric sees more of the ball in the centre so they are likely to drift into their natural positions.

With a 433 we can allow all 11 players to play in position in which they feel comfortable.

With regards to the goal threat, I think you devalue Lennon, he would get us goals, especially in a more advanced position. Its early days with Gio but I always think the more football the better for players in his stage of development. Hopefully Bent would get plenty of goals with these two either side of him, I do think Pav would be a better fit to be honest as he's more of a complete player and would be able to bring Lennon and Gio into the game more. Pavs injured though so its gonna have to be Bent.
 

Hoowl

Dr wHo(owl)
Staff
Aug 18, 2005
6,526
266
The interesting thing with your formation is that if you were to swap Gio in for Campbell then the natural progression during a game would be that Lennon would push on and Modric would move inside, creating a 433. Lennon as an attacking winger and Modric sees more of the ball in the centre so they are likely to drift into their natural positions.

When was looking at your formation it did occur to me that if Lennon dropped back into midfield then would have my 442. :)

With a 433 we can allow all 11 players to play in position in which they feel comfortable.

With regards to the goal threat, I think you devalue Lennon, he would get us goals, especially in a more advanced position. Its early days with Gio but I always think the more football the better for players in his stage of development. Hopefully Bent would get plenty of goals with these two either side of him, I do think Pav would be a better fit to be honest as he's more of a complete player and would be able to bring Lennon and Gio into the game more. Pavs injured though so its gonna have to be Bent.

Lennon has yet to convince me in terms of end product. His crossing is inconsistent and he tends to snatch at the ball when shooting (although he has had a few long shots this season that he has struck well). If he was going to score a lot of goals I think we'd have seem a glimpse of it by now. At the moment he has 10 goals in 129 appearences. That's 3 in the league during a whole season. Also, although it may seem good to have him as a wing forward, he may end up too close to the opposition defence when he recieves the ball and not have the oppertunity to collect the ball, turn and run at the opposition. This is especially the case when teams sit back against us (as almost always seems to happen at home).

I like the idea of two strikers, although I conceed we're not spoilt for choice. I just feel things are more likely to happen around the box with more players to occupy their defence.
 
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