What's new

Spurs Youth - 2019/20

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,926
if tim sherwood was given the permanent manager's job instead of hiring pochettino then would kane be as good as he is now or not? if the cream always rises to the top as you suggest then your answer surely must be yes, in which case poch has, by definition, had little part to play in where kane is now.

So your point is that it's wholly dependant on nuture? If we have a great coach who is capable of developing youth players ( not only technically but mentally as well) then that should be enough, shouldn't it. Except that it's not. There are players who are not good enough and some who are. There are some that may be ready now and some that may not be ready for a while. There are some that have the right mentality and some that don't.

The talent and the mental toughness comes from the player. Making them ready comes from the coaches.

I appreciate what you are saying but you also can't have it both ways.

Throw into the mix the pressure of making a winning first team and then tell me what you'd do differently to Poch
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
So your point is that it's wholly dependant on nuture? If we have a great coach who is capable of developing youth players ( not only technically but mentally as well) then that should be enough, shouldn't it. Except that it's not. There are players who are not good enough and some who are. There are some that may be ready now and some that may not be ready for a while. There are some that have the right mentality and some that don't.

The talent and the mental toughness comes from the player. Making them ready comes from the coaches.

I appreciate what you are saying but you also can't have it both ways.

Throw into the mix the pressure of making a winning first team and then tell me what you'd do differently to Poch

no, i'm saying it's a combination of multiple factors and for that reason i don't believe that the cream always rises to the top, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. i can have it both ways because i'm not the one claiming an absolute here. i also see that you dodged the sherwood question, presumably because it backed you into a corner that you can't answer your way out of.
 

allatsea

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
8,866
16,055
So your point is that it's wholly dependant on nuture? If we have a great coach who is capable of developing youth players ( not only technically but mentally as well) then that should be enough, shouldn't it. Except that it's not. There are players who are not good enough and some who are. There are some that may be ready now and some that may not be ready for a while. There are some that have the right mentality and some that don't.

The talent and the mental toughness comes from the player. Making them ready comes from the coaches.

I appreciate what you are saying but you also can't have it both ways.

Throw into the mix the pressure of making a winning first team and then tell me what you'd do differently to Poch

A great coach working with talented players of the right mentality will help such players reach their full potential.
 

edson

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,945
12,117
HT 3-0 up, it should be more players that are doing well so far are Pedder,Robson,Binks and Whittaker.
 

FibreOpticJesus

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2005
2,789
4,991
people say this but then at the same time will for example lay praise at poch's door for making kane who he is today, you can't have both.

if soldado and adebayor had performed as we'd hoped and kane was let go - probably to a championship side as his stock wasn't very high coming off the back of two less than stellar loans - then who knows how that would have effected him, it would've been a long road back and no one knows where he would be now.

Your point supports my comment. This discussion is about lost Tottenham youth players who they never took advantage of. You have names players who have already risen to the top. The fact that Poch could not integrate them into his system is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is nobody on here could point to youth players that we let go who then went on to make it at the top table. In a way it is good and disappointing in that we are not producing enough youth for us to use.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,926
Cream rises to the top is exactly why english football has produced so few footballers despite having great youth teams that have dominated world youth football

i dont even know where to start with, cream rises to the top and how wrong it is

With respect the reason England produces so few top level footballers is because we have a league system that forces players to drop down league and coaching quality in order to get competitive football. (Imo)

Germany, Spain, Portugal, all produce countless of top talent because they have a league system that provides the that platform.

Sometimes it's not the coaching that is the problem. It's the system.
 

Phil_2.0

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2008
927
1,804
Your point supports my comment. This discussion is about lost Tottenham youth players who they never took advantage of. You have names players who have already risen to the top. The fact that Poch could not integrate them into his system is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is nobody on here could point to youth players that we let go who then went on to make it at the top table. In a way it is good and disappointing in that we are not producing enough youth for us to use.

We've had 3 Academy players start the first two games this season, all boys that we've had at the club since they were very young.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,926
no, i'm saying it's a combination of multiple factors and for that reason i don't believe that the cream always rises to the top, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. i can have it both ways because i'm not the one claiming an absolute here. i also see that you dodged the sherwood question, presumably because it backed you into a corner that you can't answer your way out of.

I didn't realise there was a Sherwood question so I didn't dodge anything. I'm not here to win an internet debate. I'm simply trying to find solutions and I don't think it's as simple as laying it at the feet of the coaching for not giving chances. The whole point is to create a competitive environment to prepare them for senior football. If we make things easy for them and give them chances before it's deserved we may do as much damage as not giving them a chance in the first place.

I've just realised what question you were referring to: We have no guarantee that if Sherwood was around Kane would or wouldnt have made it just as we have no guarantee that a player makes it if they stay or leave. It's all circumstantial. But the body of weight indicates that on the whole we're getting it right because we don't have any examples of a Pogba, Sancho or any other player that has hit the elite level after leaving.
 
Last edited:

@Bobby__Lucky

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,933
3,982
I think this current topic mirrors life. Some make it out the ghettos/slums/estates but most don't. For example a highly intelligent man may not due to beleif in himself or confidence and an average intelligent man with extreme confident does. The main reason is application within your environment.

It could be and has been argued that they don't get the opportunity. I say the opportunity Is the platform. The opportunity is being an acamedy player in the first place. They don't deserve an opportunity in the first team because they are academy players, they deserve on because they shone enough to get a shot at the next level. If they shine they get another. Regardless being at the club at any level is the opportunity.

The post just above says we have 3 academy in the first team, I would say 4 as Danny came at 16 and took maybe 5 years to get near the first team. Even 5 with skipp. I would call none of them work horses, but they are all players of desire. Kwp showing this desire more so in the 2 games this season thus far. In fact I feel this is what has pushed him more this season as his performances have been excellent. All 5 Kane, Winks, Kyle, Danny and skipp definitely have bits. They are not bland, average or unpleasing to the eye.

Sometimes players want to go. Onomah for example pushed for loans. I believe shashua did too. During pochs reign though kane wasn't sent out, nor winks and nor Kyle.

Bottom line our current selection aren't workhorses, aren't unskilled and aren't technically insufficient.

With regard other countries the French and German leagues are not as physically demanding or as fast paced as the EPL. Its easier to transition to first team because its easier. These leagues also don't have the finances of the EPL to purchase whomever they want.

British players will find it harder. Because it is. There is a shift I believe in the quality of the youth being created. The ones coming through now are more highly skilled and have bits that previous generations didn't. I believe many of the previous generations were workhorses and bland footballers. Southgate did a great thing for British football by booting out the old guard and bringing in more youth.

One example I feel that has got his head and attitude right is Roles. Last season was one he shone brightest and has gone on loan to a great applause in his first game. His attitude seems spot on and I believe he will be back and get a shot.

Now with regard Edwards, I will like him to the highly intelligent man. I just don't think he believes in himself. His beleif comes from others. Maybe his dad? Maybe from other sources. But he doesn't have that drive. Maybe he will find it maybe he won't. But it must be the thought behind the thought, not just what's in his head. I've always had that feeling with him, especially as it's been said he's a quiet shy lad. I don't wish to psychologically stereo type as often shy types are secret extroverts. But many don't do it on the stage of life. Only in moments. I think it would of been more beneficial for Marcus if he was told his faults early and not heralded. Then maybe he in his heart would of earned that beleif in himself and in his heart rather than thinking he is good enough.
 

therhinospeaks

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2014
667
818
The likes of Reo Griffiths, Nya Kirby, and Keanan Bennets all left to a lot of teeth gnashing that they left due to the club not giving youth a chance and then went and...still didn’t play. Even though a couple went to clubs renowned for playing youth like Lyon.

The problem I find with the opportunities argument is it’s available ad infinitum - It’s like an atheist being proven wrong because he can’t prove that there isn’t a god. The thing is the burden of proof is on the person saying the player is good. If that player never turns into anything I’d say that person was wrong - turning to ifs ands or maybes doesn’t sway my opinion personally.

Using the opportunity argument we can basically pick any player in the youth squad and claim that they would have been the next best thing and have a free opportunity to have a whinge whenever we like.

For a bit of fun I’d like to say Shiloh Tracy would be better than Trezeguet if Poch would only just give him a chance FFS.
Reo is shit, as I always said
 

FibreOpticJesus

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2005
2,789
4,991
We've had 3 Academy players start the first two games this season, all boys that we've had at the club since they were very young.

Again for info. The discussion is about those we have let go. Not the ones we kept. Please read the thread and follow it through o the end?
 

guru

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
233
413
I believe all the boys that went on Loan recently pushed for their loans, as they did their time in U23s and knew if they stayed another year at that level , they could have ended up stagnant and in no mans land , like the lads before them . I have a feeling tomorrow you may see Tanganga , Parrott and Bowden as part of the squad , as we won’t want them pressuring to go on loan as well . But then you have winks Skipp and Bowden all very similar in their play . The worry is Are they going to have enough playing time between them .
 
Top