Match Ratings Ratings vs Man City

MOTM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Trippier

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Sanchez

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Verts

    Votes: 181 77.0%
  • Davies

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dier

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 4 1.7%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 12 5.1%
  • Dele

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kane

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Son

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Moura

    Votes: 28 11.9%
  • Sissoko

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 1.7%

  • Total voters
    235

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
4,887
#81
Of course they have a say, but they were also more vulnerable than they had been for months, they are clearly in a bit of a funk. Both Liverpool and ManU smelt it.

There was no Fernandinho to hold their midfield together, if we'd have been a bit livelier and smarter we could have got amongst them and rattled them.

They were also highly motivated to get a result against ManU and coughed up a 2 goal lead there. The game had massive meaning for us, we still aren't guaranteed CL. It was our last "big" game this season effectively.
even without Fernandinho their midfield was stronger than ours - and therein lies the problem. They are too quick for Dier and Dembele had one of his poorer games. Winks hurt and I dont think Wanyama was right for that game. As I pointed out in the match thread - it really highlights the need for another CM.
 

mpickard2087

Fantastic Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,452
#82
This game is still bothering me, deeply. That we could be so ill prepared, so fucking shoddy about our work and repeat the same tactical cluster fuck as we have several times before is quite troubling.

I love so much of what Poch is about but his pandering to big reps, certain players being undroppable or beyond being bollocked or yanked early when they are clearly not working or doing what's expected is an issue. The very best managers make the toughest choices, even if it means treading on egos or risking being unloved by his favourites.

We've conceded the first goal in every game bar two of the eight games we've played against the four best teams apart from us, and the majority of those were as a result of poor preparation and ambling our way into those games half arsed. Only one of those games did we manage to convert to a win and one a draw. That's four points from those five games out of 15, against our biggest rivals. If you chuck Arsenal in there, the away game was another we just didn't compete in and were blown away first 45.

The problem is, it's not confined to our biggest rivals, it's just that they are far more likely to punish us and not let us recover from it. The fact that over last couple of seasons we are one of the best sides for recovering points bares out that we are often not starting games well.

I think our record and performances against the top sides are generally a quantum level up from anything that's gone before, and we are such a good team, and Poch is an excellent coach, who gets a shit load of stuff right, but this is an issue. Added to a general issue is some specifics this season; I think we have been more tactically predictable again, having reverted to the 4231 and the laborious midfield, but opponents know who will get picked every week because no matter who we add to our squad, Poch refuses to rotate or drop certain players or apply a different tactical approach.

Because we are so good, and a lot of what he coaches is so good, we can beat 75% of this league by turning up now, but the other 25% needs more than just turning up. It needs us to be smarter and apply ourselves better.
Agree with pretty much all of that. I have said it a few times now after tough results, but I look at what happens and think Poch, on the biggest occasions, needs to be a bit more ruthless and 'manage' the 90 minutes a bit more and be more proactive in his interventions. He has a tendency to let things drift.

This happens most games in all truth - look at Stoke last weekend for instance. We go ahead, but suddenly the work rate drops and we're a bit more open, still playing the high line though, and in the end we just about got away with it. It will be forgotten though because of the win, and as you say BC against 75% (maybe more) of the league you can get away with it and letting the game open up, go through the motions a bit in certain aspects, maybe outgun them in the latter stages, and still win pretty easily. But we've seen on the biggest occasions, where the margins are so fine, you have to manage the game and be tactically strong for the whole game. You cant ease off at any point. The Juve game for instance we threw away largely because of this - we stop pressing well, lose compactness, still try to hold the high line despite this, and get ruthlessly punished. This City game was just like that from minute one.

For me Poch has got to be more alert to this when it happens, especially in the biggest games, and adjust accordingly - no matter what that means doing. If players aren't pressing, for whatever reason, then either we have to a) all drop behind the ball, drop that defensive line, and restrict space and look to counter or b) if he wants them to press then if individuals cant/wont do it, say it's late in games and they're flagging or not fit enough like Kane at the weekend, then you take them off and get people on who can and will do it - no matter who that means taking off. In some games though we just cannot afford to go through the motions, as we often do.

I was also disappointed at the weekend how we just didn't react to patterns of play happening in the game. We had a lazy press in any case, but right from minute one what was happening was Eriksen was joining Kane and so (with Alli/Lamela wide) basically passively engaging their defence 4 vs. 4, the ball was just being fed constantly into Gundogan in the centre circle, and then we were fucked..... I'm not one to stick up for Dier/Dembele too readily, but when that pass is being made constantly and they're now outnumbered and left with the choice of engaging the ball, but leaving one of Silva/De Bruyne to roam free (and be found, as then almost always happened), what chance do they have? There wasn't even 10 minutes on the clock and these two weren't prepared to push up the pitch for fear of leaving that space between the lines, and I cant blame them really...... Anyway, my point is, how many times do you need to see this happen to change things? Getting Eriksen just to sit on Gundogan and attempt to block those passes would have been a start, but the game, and the drift, just continued.

Football management isn't an exact science, you wont always get every decision in game right and maintain control on proceedings. But I do think that there are games, especially the biggest ones, where I'd like to see Poch being a bit more proactive to what is happening. For me, that is the next step more than anything that ekes out those marginal gains that take us right to the top.
 
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Jospur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Messages
1,115
#83
Like most on here I gave Star Man to Vertonghen. Moura made a difference when he came on - and I'm looking forward to seeing more of him this season and next.

It was depressing watching Saturday's game. It's not only that we lost - it's how we lost. I've watched games when we've lost and felt that we played well and that there was progress on the field. This was quite the opposite - we lost - and we deserved to lose.

So with that in mind, I'm going to complain about one of our players. I know we should support those that wear the shirt but I'm fed up and so I'll vent a bit.

Lamela. He's been out for a long time and now he's back. And his performances haven't been too bad. He was probably selected over Son in that game because of his energy and willingness to track back. But surely we need a player in that position to be more than 'not too bad' and having the energy to run and make tackles? What irks me most is Lamela's one-footedness. He's been out for a long, long time. Surely he should have been working on using his right foot? He's so left-footed that the opposition players use that knowledge to their advantage - especially effective when he's playing out wide.

The icing on the cake for me with Lamela was when he broke in on goal and had Eriksen on his inside and totally clear to take a shot and he elected not to pass.

Erik Lamela is a talented player and has much to offer on the field. Maybe he's better used in the centre. He'd proved that he has the talent to be an exceptional player over the years but, from this Spurs supporter, I'm all for him moving on and bringing in a sizeable transfer fee. He'd done well in Italy before - maybe he'll do even better there this time 'round.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
#84
even without Fernandinho their midfield was stronger than ours - and therein lies the problem. They are too quick for Dier and Dembele had one of his poorer games. Winks hurt and I dont think Wanyama was right for that game. As I pointed out in the match thread - it really highlights the need for another CM.
To quick for Dier and Dembele and an extra man in there and Poch still picks just those two and leaves the far more dynamic, tenacious and better at pressing Wanyama on the bench. That is just not very clever tactical thinking IMO.

Yes we need another CM (or two) desperately, but not being tactically efficient with what you do have will always be a problem, no matter who you have. Just look at the dogs dinner Mourinho's made of his midfield for much of the season.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
4,887
#85
To quick for Dier and Dembele and an extra man in there and Poch still picks just those two and leaves the far more dynamic, tenacious and better at pressing Wanyama on the bench. That is just not very clever tactical thinking IMO.

Yes we need another CM (or two) desperately, but not being tactically efficient with what you do have will always be a problem, no matter who you have. Just look at the dogs dinner Mourinho's made of his midfield for much of the season.
wanyama cant pass well. he's great at breaking up play not so much in possession. I see why he went Dier over Wanyama. I dont think either is the answer for City.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
#86
wanyama cant pass well. he's great at breaking up play not so much in possession. I see why he went Dier over Wanyama. I dont think either is the answer for City.
That’s simply not true. As well as being better without the ball, Wanyama passes the ball better - quicker and with more incision. He makes more key passes and creates more chances. They both see plenty of it too. His (Wanyama’s) pass completion is a smidgeon better than Dier’s. The only thing Dier does more of is those long punts, which are rarely successful.

Wanyama is also more willing to receive the ball under pressure, something Dier hates, but is obligatory in games like this.

Even if you were right, which you’re factually not, what we really needed was some of that dynamism Wanyama brings, someone to ruffle City’s rhythm, not Dier chundering around.
 
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werty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
19,912
#87
I was also disappointed at the weekend how we just didn't react to patterns of play happening in the game. We had a lazy press in any case, but right from minute one what was happening was Eriksen was joining Kane and so (with Alli/Lamela wide) basically passively engaging their defence 4 vs. 4, the ball was just being fed constantly into Gundogan in the centre circle, and then we were fucked..... I'm not one to stick up for Dier/Dembele too readily, but when that pass is being made constantly and they're now outnumbered and left with the choice of engaging the ball, but leaving one of Silva/De Bruyne to roam free (and be found, as then almost always happened), what chance do they have? There wasn't even 10 minutes on the clock and these two weren't prepared to push up the pitch for fear of leaving that space between the lines, and I cant blame them really...... Anyway, my point is, how many times do you need to see this happen to change things? Getting Eriksen just to sit on Gundogan and attempt to block those passes would have been a start, but the game, and the drift, just continued.
When they had the ball they went to a back 3 with Walker going to the right of a back three, Laporte to the left and Delph pushing into midfield with Gundogan. De Bruyne and Silva were then moved highish and wider between our CBs and fullbacks. Alli and Lamela didn't really know what to do. They got stuck between not knowing who and when to press and trying to get into the path of the passes to Silva/Sane and De Bruyne/Sterling and ended up doing neither. Eriksen was then left with two to cover and no matter who he picked up he was wrong.

Dier and Dembele then had a similar issue. If they went wider to block the path of the ball to Silva or De Bruyne then there was an easy pass into Jesus. They were never going to go goal side too often because we don't ask them to and we would have ended up with a 6-0-4 formation. The few times they tried to push onto Delph and Gundogan they just left too much space for Silva and De Bruyne. No matter that they did they were wrong as well.

The killing thing is we had similar problems in the first half against Chelsea (and at times in the away game last year too) - they just aren't as good a passing team as City so we weren't punished often - and we often take up a similar shape when in possession and played a good chunk of last year with the exact same set up so it was criminal that we were so badly prepared and didn't adjust to it. City didn't blow us away with great rotation or catch us on the hop with a different formation. They were (and are) very strict in where they play and have played with that shape for most of the season. We were just in the completely wrong formation.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
4,887
#88
That’s simply not true. As well as being better without the ball, Wanyama passes the ball better - quicker and with more incision. He makes more key passes and creates more chances. They both see plenty of it too. His (Wanyama’s) pass completion is a smidgeon better than Dier’s. The only thing Dier does more of is those long punts, which are rarely successful.

Wanyama is also more willing to receive the ball under pressure, something Dier hates, but is obligatory in games like this.

Even if you were right, which you’re factually not, what we really needed was some of that dynamism Wanyama brings, someone to ruffle City’s rhythm, not Dier chundering around.
it simply is. Wanyama is more likely to pass back, has 0 assists and 3 chances created. Dier has 2 assists and 15 chances created, albeit in 6 times as many minutes.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
20,343
#89
it simply is. Wanyama is more likely to pass back, has 0 assists and 3 chances created. Dier has 2 assists and 15 chances created, albeit in 6 times as many minutes.
You've acknowledged that Wanyama has played far less matches than Dier don't you so that's not the fairest of comparisons is it?
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,671
#90
When they had the ball they went to a back 3 with Walker going to the right of a back three, Laporte to the left and Delph pushing into midfield with Gundogan. De Bruyne and Silva were then moved highish and wider between our CBs and fullbacks. Alli and Lamela didn't really know what to do. They got stuck between not knowing who and when to press and trying to get into the path of the passes to Silva/Sane and De Bruyne/Sterling and ended up doing neither. Eriksen was then left with two to cover and no matter who he picked up he was wrong.

Dier and Dembele then had a similar issue. If they went wider to block the path of the ball to Silva or De Bruyne then there was an easy pass into Jesus. They were never going to go goal side too often because we don't ask them to and we would have ended up with a 6-0-4 formation. The few times they tried to push onto Delph and Gundogan they just left too much space for Silva and De Bruyne. No matter that they did they were wrong as well.

The killing thing is we had similar problems in the first half against Chelsea (and at times in the away game last year too) - they just aren't as good a passing team as City so we weren't punished often - and we often take up a similar shape when in possession and played a good chunk of last year with the exact same set up so it was criminal that we were so badly prepared and didn't adjust to it. City didn't blow us away with great rotation or catch us on the hop with a different formation. They were (and are) very strict in where they play and have played with that shape for most of the season. We were just in the completely wrong formation.
Interesting post.

No matter the formation I felt the work rate was far less than we saw against Chelsea even.

The one thing that was clear as day was Kane's lack of workrate/pressing.
And that renders the rest of press from the front ineffective.

The first goal was embarrassing, kompany under no pressure clips that ball through with all the time in the world.

Not pressing from the front at all just set a completely lethargic tone for the rest of our game, and that enabled them to tactically pass through us with ease.
 

werty

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Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
19,912
#91
Interesting post.

No matter the formation I felt the work rate was far less than we saw against Chelsea even.

The one thing that was clear as day was Kane's lack of workrate/pressing.
And that renders the rest of press from the front ineffective.

The first goal was embarrassing, kompany under no pressure clips that ball through with all the time in the world.

Not pressing from the front at all just set a completely lethargic tone for the rest of our game, and that enabled them to tactically pass through us with ease.
Our press definitely wasn't up to standard, but with Alli and Lamela unsure of what to do I don't think it would have made much of a difference if Kane was pressing to his best. I don't think trying to press them was the right option, certainly not with a 4-2-3-1.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
4,887
#92
You've acknowledged that Wanyama has played far less matches than Dier don't you so that's not the fairest of comparisons is it?
I can only give the stats that exist. Just because BC thinks Wanyama is a better passer is "factually" correct, it isnt a fact. I know Wanyama passes back more frequently because that stat exists and to my eye Wanyama is more likely to pick the safer shorter pass with little contribution to the offense.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,671
#93
Our press definitely wasn't up to standard, but with Alli and Lamela unsure of what to do I don't think it would have made much of a difference if Kane was pressing to his best. I don't think trying to press them was the right option, certainly not with a 4-2-3-1.
For me you have to aggressively press them, just like we did last season at WHL without Kane IIRC, otherwise they'll cut through you at will.
 

werty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
19,912
#94
For me you have to aggressively press them, just like we did last season at WHL without Kane IIRC, otherwise they'll cut through you at will.
We've tried to do it at the Etihad the last two years and it didn't work. Both of us were using different formations in the game at WHL too, and City are a much better team than they were then.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
#95
it simply is. Wanyama is more likely to pass back, has 0 assists and 3 chances created. Dier has 2 assists and 15 chances created, albeit in 6 times as many minutes.
They are idiotic stats. You're comparing someone who's played 470 minutes with someone who's played 2600. Compare Wanyama's stats for last and Dier's for this when there's a proper sample size for Wanyama and what your eyes failed to pick up was that his passing is nearly twice as likely to yield something incisive or creative:

Screen Shot 2018-04-17 at 01.22.36.png



And Wanyama averages about 2 passes back a game more than Dier.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
#96
Our press definitely wasn't up to standard, but with Alli and Lamela unsure of what to do I don't think it would have made much of a difference if Kane was pressing to his best. I don't think trying to press them was the right option, certainly not with a 4-2-3-1.

Kane was definitely the worst culprit by a mile. Directly culpable for the first goal, which was page 1 of the "things not to do" book when playing a high line.

I agree with some of the other stuff you said, but Kane was shockingly bad and he's the one who has to lead the press, or at least support it properly.

I noticed Eriksen about 4 times go to press his man, look round only to see Kane just jogging towards his man and the whole thing just broke down immediately.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
10,303
#97
Kane was definitely the worst culprit by a mile. Directly culpable for the first goal, which was page 1 of the "things not to do" book when playing a high line.

I agree with some of the other stuff you said, but Kane was shockingly bad and he's the one who has to lead the press, or at least support it properly.

I noticed Eriksen about 4 times go to press his man, look round only to see Kane just jogging towards his man and the whole thing just broke down immediately.
It really hurts me when people speak ill of Kane, but he was atrocious on Sunday. He was so bad that I can draw no other conclusion that he should not have been on the pitch at all.
 

fortworthspur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
4,887
#99
They are idiotic stats. You're comparing someone who's played 470 minutes with someone who's played 2600. Compare Wanyama's stats for last and Dier's for this when there's a proper sample size for Wanyama and what your eyes failed to pick up was that his passing is nearly twice as likely to yield something incisive or creative:

View attachment 37559


And Wanyama averages about 2 passes back a game more than Dier.
haha - you think calling me an idiot bolsters your argument. you left out average backward passes and pass length in your chart. the other thing you neglect to consider is that a large chunk of Dier's appearances are as a center back. Its about 30% this year and Id wager it was more last year as we played 3 CBs often. Of course a CM is going to average more chances created over 90 minutes than a player who is a part time CM and part time defender.
 
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jonnyp

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Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
2,460
haha - you think calling me an idiot bolsters your argument. you left out average backward passes and pass length in your chart. the other thing you neglect to consider is that a large chunk of Dier's appearances are as a center back. Its about 30% this year and Id wager it was more last year as we played 3 CBs often. Of course a CM is going to average more chances created over 90 minutes than a player who is a part time CM and part time defender.
BC always looks blindly at stats and never puts any context to any of them, which makes them absolutely useless.
 
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