Player Watch Player Watch: Harry Winks

glospur

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Fun facts: Winks (who also came off on the 64th minute) played the second most long passes (8) after Alderweireld (10) and also had the joint most overall passes (82) with Alderweireld (83), but the highest pass completion of any outfield player who started the match (96.3). He lost possession once, despite having the joint most touches (90) with Alderweireld.

Of his 83 passes, 43 were forwards, bettered by all of our defenders but nobody else.

He also managed the joint most key passes of our four midfielders (2) with Lamela, with Sissoko and Ndombele managing one each.
Nah but my EYES are telling me he doesngt pass forwards and only passes backwards and only passes sideways and my eyes are the best because theyre mine and i dont need no stats to tell me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards because my eyes told me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards and my eyes are more reliable than facts because i know football and in football harry winks only passes sideways and he only passes bakwards and my eyes told me he does
 

spursfan77

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Fun facts: Winks (who also came off on the 64th minute) played the second most long passes (8) after Alderweireld (10) and also had the joint most overall passes (82) with Alderweireld (83), but the highest pass completion of any outfield player who started the match (96.3). He lost possession once, despite having the joint most touches (90) with Alderweireld.

Of his 83 passes, 43 were forwards, bettered by all of our defenders but nobody else.

He also managed the joint most key passes of our four midfielders (2) with Lamela, with Sissoko and Ndombele managing one each.
I can’t believe anyone can moan about him. Those that do, probably don’t understand his role in the team. Maybe if his name was Harrio Winksiniho their attitudes would be different?
 

cliff jones

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Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.
 

Gbspurs

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Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.
Son and Alli will help too.
 

-Afri-Coy-

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Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.
This annoyed the shhhh out of me on the weekend, our entire team besides the man on the ball were constantly standing still waiting for something to happen. We need our forwards to make intelligent and penetrating runs through the lines for players like Lo Celso and Ndombele to be effective.

If a team parks the bus we cannot spend 60+ minutes passing sideways due to lack of off the ball movement, the players need to be more proactive than that. City and Pool deal with the same problems and yet they manage to put goals past these teams, that's because their forwards make intelligent runs between the lines to break the defensive solidarity. This is something we desperately need to work on.
 

spursfan77

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Winks is really good at what he does, but the key question is what the combination of him/Sissoko/nDombele offers in a home match against a mid-table team at best?

The answer is ball retention but not enough penetration, which is why an extra attacker is needed instead.

My greatest frustration is still the lack of off the ball movement against a packed defence. Pass it, then run beyond! Don't just fking stand there. I hope GLC can add something along these lines.
I was surprised by the sub on Saturday. I thought the most obvious one, at half time actually, was Eriksen for sissoko. That’s probably because of my predetermined preference for quality on the ball over power though probably.
 

Gbspurs

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I was surprised by the sub on Saturday. I thought the most obvious one, at half time actually, was Eriksen for sissoko. That’s probably because of my predetermined preference for quality on the ball over power though probably.
I suspect fitness was one of the deciding factors for the change. Winks certainly took a knock.
 

tooey

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This annoyed the shhhh out of me on the weekend, our entire team besides the man on the ball were constantly standing still waiting for something to happen. We need our forwards to make intelligent and penetrating runs through the lines for players like Lo Celso and Ndombele to be effective.

If a team parks the bus we cannot spend 60+ minutes passing sideways due to lack of off the ball movement, the players need to be more proactive than that. City and Pool deal with the same problems and yet they manage to put goals past these teams, that's because their forwards make intelligent runs between the lines to break the defensive solidarity. This is something we desperately need to work on.
It's too simplistic to blame the movement of the front players when Villa defended as deep and compact as they did. It's impossible to break lines when your opposition are defending in 2 banks that are about 10 meters apart.

I saw people criticising that we were just passing sideways...a criticism that's offered up a lot when we're at home against weaker teams, silly criticism, we pass sideways to try and stretch their defensive unit to find gaps for our attackers to move into. The issue is that other than Eriksen and to a lesser extent Lamela/Dele we dont really have anybody intricate enough to create chances in tight spaces.

We saw the goals go in when they did because Villa became fatigued mentally and physically and allowed space for us to operate.
 

leelee

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Nah but my EYES are telling me he doesngt pass forwards and only passes backwards and only passes sideways and my eyes are the best because theyre mine and i dont need no stats to tell me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards because my eyes told me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards and my eyes are more reliable than facts because i know football and in football harry winks only passes sideways and he only passes bakwards and my eyes told me he does
That's all Rodri seemed to do for Atletico last season, yet City paid over 60m for him. Busquets too at Barca.

Winks is quality. Teams need players like Winksy.
 

Stamford

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Nah but my EYES are telling me he doesngt pass forwards and only passes backwards and only passes sideways and my eyes are the best because theyre mine and i dont need no stats to tell me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards because my eyes told me that he only passes sideways and he only passes backwards and my eyes are more reliable than facts because i know football and in football harry winks only passes sideways and he only passes bakwards and my eyes told me he does
I love Winks but its ok to use your own eyes to asses a game, particularly when you're in the ground. The meaningless stats trotted out by Sky etc aren't as useful as made out
 

nedley

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I think the position of holding midfielder, or deep lying playmaker is also one of the most difficult to to learn. There is so much going on at every moment, you don’t get time to rest like a CB or a striker. You’re constantly in the game having to make decisions. Experience is vital for learning the role properly.
Ngolo Kante at the age of 24. Older than Winks was playing in the second division in France.

Time.
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

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I love Winks but its ok to use your own eyes to asses a game, particularly when you're in the ground. The meaningless stats trotted out by Sky etc aren't as useful as made out
It’s fine to use your own eyes but just know what you see will always be influenced by predetermined biases.
 

newbie

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It's too simplistic to blame the movement of the front players when Villa defended as deep and compact as they did. It's impossible to break lines when your opposition are defending in 2 banks that are about 10 meters apart.

I saw people criticising that we were just passing sideways...a criticism that's offered up a lot when we're at home against weaker teams, silly criticism, we pass sideways to try and stretch their defensive unit to find gaps for our attackers to move into. The issue is that other than Eriksen and to a lesser extent Lamela/Dele we dont really have anybody intricate enough to create chances in tight spaces.

We saw the goals go in when they did because Villa became fatigued mentally and physically and allowed space for us to operate.
but isnt that why we keep moving the ball so they have to chase tire and spaces appear?
 

-Afri-Coy-

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It's too simplistic to blame the movement of the front players when Villa defended as deep and compact as they did. It's impossible to break lines when your opposition are defending in 2 banks that are about 10 meters apart.

I saw people criticising that we were just passing sideways...a criticism that's offered up a lot when we're at home against weaker teams, silly criticism, we pass sideways to try and stretch their defensive unit to find gaps for our attackers to move into. The issue is that other than Eriksen and to a lesser extent Lamela/Dele we dont really have anybody intricate enough to create chances in tight spaces.

We saw the goals go in when they did because Villa became fatigued mentally and physically and allowed space for us to operate.
The problem isn't the sideways passing, it's the off the ball movement. I understand why we pass sideways and attempt to stretch the defense out and play wide to open up gaps for the attackers to move into, however we seem to revert to trying to cross into the box with players down the wings who cannot put in decent crosses on a consistent basis, this hinders us through the middle.

This is the reason why Eriksen thrives, because he is not afraid to try the forward pass through the middle when the defense is stretched. We don't always have to play out wide to stretch defenses, we need intelligent passes and movement through the middle to allow our midfielders outlets other than passing to each other or our defense.

I understand this is easier said than done in theory, but it's not impossible. Ndombele was clearly frustrated for periods in the game as he was waiting for someone ahead of him to create some space and open up for one of his forward passes (Arguably one of his best attributes) but the movement just wasn't there. We were frustrated and flat footed.

When Eriksen came on the forwards had a clear change in mindset, it's like they knew they had someone to thread those passes for them and thus made the movements that were necessary. If they had the same trust in Ndombele and Winks/Sissoko, I'm sure we would've had a better 60+ minutes than we did without Eriksen.

Just my onions ofcourse, not that I know any better than the professionals this was just my observation.
 

glospur

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That's all Rodri seemed to do for Atletico last season, yet City paid over 60m for him. Busquets too at Barca.

Winks is quality. Teams need players like Winksy.
Agreed. I was just taking the piss with that post. Not sure I made it satirical enough.

I love Winks but its ok to use your own eyes to asses a game, particularly when you're in the ground. The meaningless stats trotted out by Sky etc aren't as useful as made out
I generally think that the best analysis comes from a combination of the two. I think it's fine, as long as you're capable as seeing it as nothing more than your own novice opinion, but too many people see their eyes and themselves as an authoritative source and aren't humble enough to realise that a lot of the time they know fuck all, myself included. That's when we get people rolling out the 'he proved me wrong' line. No, he didn't. The person was just wrong in the first place and not humble enough to admit it.

The problem too is that people use the eye test for things that can be quantitated, and when it come to Winks and his passing a lot of people who are critical roll out the passing backwards and sideways line, but when shown their claims are categorically untrue they ignore. They're statistical arguments they're making, so the eye test just doesn't cut it as a source.

It’s fine to use your own eyes but just know what you see will always be influenced by predetermined biases.
Bingo. Absolutely this.
 

nedley

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The problem isn't the sideways passing, it's the off the ball movement. I understand why we pass sideways and attempt to stretch the defense out and play wide to open up gaps for the attackers to move into, however we seem to revert to trying to cross into the box with players down the wings who cannot put in decent crosses on a consistent basis, this hinders us through the middle.

This is the reason why Eriksen thrives, because he is not afraid to try the forward pass through the middle when the defense is stretched. We don't always have to play out wide to stretch defenses, we need intelligent passes and movement through the middle to allow our midfielders outlets other than passing to each other or our defense.

I understand this is easier said than done in theory, but it's not impossible. Ndombele was clearly frustrated for periods in the game as he was waiting for someone ahead of him to create some space and open up for one of his forward passes (Arguably one of his best attributes) but the movement just wasn't there. We were frustrated and flat footed.

When Eriksen came on the forwards had a clear change in mindset, it's like they knew they had someone to thread those passes for them and thus made the movements that were necessary. If they had the same trust in Ndombele and Winks/Sissoko, I'm sure we would've had a better 60+ minutes than we did without Eriksen.

Just my onions ofcourse, not that I know any better than the professionals this was just my observation.
Because that's his role.

That isn't necessarily the same for Winks.
 

tooey

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but isnt that why we keep moving the ball so they have to chase tire and spaces appear?
It absolutely is. That's sort of my argument. Part of the reason our front line appeared so static was because they really had nowhere to go due to Villa playing ultra-deep and narrow (part of the reason our narrow formation wasn't effective) it wasn't until they started to tire that Kane, in particular, was afforded some space to operate.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is a really simple one, Winks' role in large part is to primarily keep hold of the ball and to also shift it as much as possible to ensure the opposition are having to constantly cover ground. His passing may not be the most direct or progressive at times but that's not because he's naturally risk adverse or incapable of producing these passes, it's because when we're playing against sides who are content with a point and defend extremely deep we need to move the ball, with the aim of tiring them until they break, not lumping the ball up top at every opportunity.
 
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