What's new

Our Poor European Form

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
1,723
8,579
Do you think Poch is tactically weak or do you think he can't implement the tactics he wants because he doesn't have the players?

I think it is a combination of both but he certainly lacks a bit of flexibility in game more prominently and that's due to the lack of different options he has.

I have been impressed with some of the tactical switches he's made in the past - going three at the back against Watford last season took everyone by surprise and it was brilliant - he was doing that in the PL long before Conte. But playing a high line against Liverpool last week leaving Davies isolated against Mane was so so naive...

Tactics are something that we always hear about when managers lose and rarely when they win, other than if they've changed the formation or played a park the bus type game. I guess we'll never know how much of this stuff goes on but I do remember hearing from Southampton fans that one of their biggest grievances from Poch was that he never seemed to have a plan B if things weren't going well. And as a relatively inexperienced manager with a relatively inexperienced squad, I think we're bound to get found out against teams playing different styles that we're not used to watching week by week. I know Poch likes young, hungry players but I really think we could do with adding some experience in the side, maybe even on the coaching staff.
 

DIEHARD

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2004
4,659
5,443
I have been impressed with some of the tactical switches he's made in the past - going three at the back against Watford last season took everyone by surprise and it was brilliant - he was doing that in the PL long before Conte. But playing a high line against Liverpool last week leaving Davies isolated against Mane was so so naive...

Tactics are something that we always hear about when managers lose and rarely when they win, other than if they've changed the formation or played a park the bus type game. I guess we'll never know how much of this stuff goes on but I do remember hearing from Southampton fans that one of their biggest grievances from Poch was that he never seemed to have a plan B if things weren't going well. And as a relatively inexperienced manager with a relatively inexperienced squad, I think we're bound to get found out against teams playing different styles that we're not used to watching week by week. I know Poch likes young, hungry players but I really think we could do with adding some experience in the side, maybe even on the coaching staff.

I think it's his in game management that is the issue. He will learn and develop all this through experience but I think the lack of options that he trusts is perhaps contributing to this.

I agree with you though around his and the teams inexperience and that's why it's importance we incorporate the squad with some experience this summer,
 

DIEHARD

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2004
4,659
5,443
There's obviously a Combination of both but more that he is tactically weak tbh.

I think we kind of stumbled on to 4-2-3-1 last season that worked for us the majority of the time, so he's gone out and bought players he thought could slip in to that formation just because they can play in the positions, but you need players who will fit the system, not the formation.

Last season the success in 4-2-3-1 was based on two players imo; lamela pressing from the front, and dier dropping into defence. These two key components set the tone for the rest of the squad (alli pressing, walker n rose free to attack, Eriksen given more free reign, demebele allowed to drive forward, Kane not having to press by himself etc etc) it was like they were the key cogs but now they are missing it just isn't working and yet he is persisting with the same ineffiecint cogs (which is why I think the 3-5-2 we've been playing has brought us some success because it suits our players - walker n rose once again freed up, Eriksen working from deeper, alli playing as a support striker)

The 352 works a treat and think that Poch will continue to play that, the problem is once one player from that system is out we struggle because we don't have like for like in key areas eg defence or wing backs.

I disagree though when you say he brought those players, I genuinely don't think he brought these players. It is prominent he never got these players in with the messages he is relaying... If you buy players you do your due diligence ie what they're like on the pitch, in training, personal life perhaps etc. I can't imagine Poch will not have known about these players. I digress but it all intertwines either one another.
 

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,059
6,516
From a Sky article:

Since August 2014, Tottenham have won just once in 15 away games against the other teams currently in the Premier League top six.

That streak reflects a wider issue Spurs have in big matches since Pochettino's appointment. Their record against Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City and Arsenal across all competitions plus Champions League fixtures reads: nine wins out of 37 matches.

That is the essence of the problem; we aren't any good against the top teams and haven't been for a very long time. The best teams spend money, have experienced winners in the team and tend not to sell their best players. On the other hand we are run very well financially - and that is it.

I can see your point which is a good one, but lacking belief and bravery away from home against the big boys illustrates one kind of psychological weakness. Not being up for a game in Gent is illustrative of another. Mentality, in summary, mentality.
We've seen they can consistently produce a good technical level, but away from home or even at Wembley under pressure....
 

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
1,723
8,579
Pretty sure it was more like Lennon, Jenas, Zokora, Tainio

I can't be bothered to go back and check the line-up from every game that season, and it's also largely irrelevant as football and tactics have moved on in the past 10 years - but Malbranque definitely started both games against Braga in the round of 16, he scored in both legs!

Quite liked that team. If only we'd had better CMs.
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2005
16,047
18,013
I'm still a little unsure what you're trying to say about our team ? Do you think we have players with bad attitude ?

I think that a couple of them have the wrong attitude. The players with the 'bad' attitude have been shown the door and sold.
 

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
1,723
8,579
If one positive has come from last night it's gotta be that Poch and Levy can no longer ignore this issue. Last night we had a strong team out, the players were clearly up for the game, and at least where I was sitting Wembley was noisy. But yet again, out of Europe with a whimper.

Regardless of whether or not it was a "bad day at the office" where we were wasteful with finishing and let the opposition score with practically their only chances of the match, I just cannot imagine any of our rivals in the top 6 going out of Europe to opposition like Gent.

We need to adopt a different style for European games. And I think we need different personnel to do it.
 

shelfboy68

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2008
14,566
19,651
If one positive has come from last night it's gotta be that Poch and Levy can no longer ignore this issue. Last night we had a strong team out, the players were clearly up for the game, and at least where I was sitting Wembley was noisy. But yet again, out of Europe with a whimper.

Regardless of whether or not it was a "bad day at the office" where we were wasteful with finishing and let the opposition score with practically their only chances of the match, I just cannot imagine any of our rivals in the top 6 going out of Europe to opposition like Gent.

We need to adopt a different style for European games. And I think we need different personnel to do it.

Agree with your sentiments but don't expect transfer policy to change too much, I can't see Levy backtracking on how he operates within the marketplace.
It's not so much numbers we lack in the squad but rather quality competition that leaves us short of where we want to be.
 

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
7,333
20,178
If one positive has come from last night it's gotta be that Poch and Levy can no longer ignore this issue. Last night we had a strong team out, the players were clearly up for the game, and at least where I was sitting Wembley was noisy. But yet again, out of Europe with a whimper.

Regardless of whether or not it was a "bad day at the office" where we were wasteful with finishing and let the opposition score with practically their only chances of the match, I just cannot imagine any of our rivals in the top 6 going out of Europe to opposition like Gent.

We need to adopt a different style for European games. And I think we need different personnel to do it.

I agree with some of that but I don't agree that we went out with a whimper.

We made loads of mistakes and the finishing was woeful but we were still by far the better side and even with ten men for an hour created far more than they did, scored one of their goals for them, got almost every player booked for evidently caring passionately about the game, and at times looked like the team with more men on the pitch, and played 99% of the creative attacking football, so despite failing, letting us all down, being a disgrace, being unacceptable or however else anyone might choose to express their disappointment the one charge which I don't think is fair is that they went out with a whimper.

I came away from that game feeling hugely frustrated and angry about what had happened, but not worried in the way I do when we play like ****s for no apparent reason, like we did earlier in the competition. That isn't what happened last night.
 

Khilari

Plumber. Sort of.
Jun 19, 2008
3,461
5,287
It occurred to me that whilst we have brilliant players - the best group of players for some time, when teams in the past have been punctuated by individually brilliant players and mediocre supporting team members - we don't actually yet have a team good enough to compete at the highest level in Europe.

Sure, Genk are a very average, probably below average team in European competition and we lost. But we could have won and probably would have had it not been for Alli's red card. That doesn't alter the fact that we still probably would have lost to one of the bigger European teams.

I watched Atletico and Lyon play and dismantle the opposition yesterday. The way also that Man City dominated Monaco.

We can on our day compete with any team, but to do it regularly and still win when we play badly against the best is another step away.

If we can strengthen in key positions this summer (namely a striker and a top quality attacking player who are better than what we have) we will be making strides that way. Not quite there yet.
 

Khilari

Plumber. Sort of.
Jun 19, 2008
3,461
5,287
I agree with some of that but I don't agree that we went out with a whimper.

We made loads of mistakes and the finishing was woeful but we were still by far the better side and even with ten men for an hour created far more than they did, scored one of their goals for them, got almost every player booked for evidently caring passionately about the game, and at times looked like the team with more men on the pitch, and played 99% of the creative attacking football, so despite failing, letting us all down, being a disgrace, being unacceptable or however else anyone might choose to express their disappointment the one charge which I don't think is fair is that they went out with a whimper.

I came away from that game feeling hugely frustrated and angry about what had happened, but not worried in the way I do when we play like ****s for no apparent reason, like we did earlier in the competition. That isn't what happened last night.
This. thought we played with a lot of heart and guts despite two early setbacks after a great start.

Was gutted we lost but proud at the way the supporters sang for us and the way the team played.

These things happen.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
I think it's highly important we buy quality if that's not available we wait. We need to come away from our spread betting method ie Sissoko Janssen instead that money could have gone on lacazette for example.
 

WorcesterTHFC

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2016
1,777
2,545
I think it's highly important we buy quality if that's not available we wait. We need to come away from our spread betting method ie Sissoko Janssen instead that money could have gone on lacazette for example.
Quality should prevail over quantity in any walk of life.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
Quality should prevail over quantity in any walk of life.


Well tell Levy I suppose that's the difference between us and Chelski

Having said that we are working under different conditions so we might have to swallow these bitter pills until our circumstances change with hopefully the stadium
 
Top