Our Poor European Form

[Rocksuperstar]

Under Jol and Redknapp we played 442 with fast wingers, I wonder if that has anything to do with it?

It has a lot to do with it. We have a specific eleven players who play in a specific formation that really, really works well - it's like Poch found a "cheat" formation on Champ Manager - but regardless of what talent we have on the bench, none of them are a like for like replacement. As soon as we remove any element from that eleven or change the formation, we look really shaky.

Considering how much money is involved and how many matches it adds to the calander, I've often wondered why we don't see teams having a domestic eleven and a european eleven, almost working as separate units entirely, the only real similarities being from the bench. It's not really that unbelievable to think that it could happen in the end - not even a weaker, second string line up, i mean players bought in knowing they will only play european and cup games, won't even be registered in the league squad perhaps, on slightly higher than average wages as a retainer, but less bonus clauses because their sole purpose will be to lift a trophy, and their reward will be staggered accordingly.

That would allow two teams to form and focus on very different formations, tactics, style, etc. instead of having to phase half the team in and out and hope that they can gel as well as the starting eleven do.

I know that's a pretty fantastical idea to many, but i'm not so sure we're far off seeing this come to be a thing. Clubs may well not even acknowledge they do it, but we're certainly heading in that direction when we see eight or nine changes to a lot of sides.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You can train a monkey to play football, but with the wrong attitude he will prefer to peel a banana.

You cannot train attitude, it's easy to confuse mentality with attitude.

not sure what you are saying.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

not sure what you are saying.

Neither is he!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Under Jol and Redknapp we played 442 with fast wingers, I wonder if that has anything to do with it?

Why have we achieved more without them then ?

Redknapp also had Gallas, King, Parker, Modric, Bale, VDV and Adebayor and played the strongest team throughout and prioritised the CL at the cost of finishing in the top 4.

 

[shelfboy68]

Why have we achieved more without them then ?

Redknapp also had Gallas, King, Parker, Modric, Bale, VDV and Adebayor and played the strongest team throughout and prioritised the CL at the cost of finishing in the top 4.

Imagine if we had bale and modric from then in the team now I think we might genuinely win the league.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

not sure what you are saying.

Poor attitude can be confused with poor mentality. One can be changed through training the other cannot, and is not just football related but often confused by those who do not recognize the difference between the two.

(i don't mean you by he way)

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Poor attitude can be confused with poor mentality. One can be changed through training the other cannot, and is not just football related but often confused by those who do not recognize the difference between the two.

(i don't mean you by he way)

I'm still a little unsure what you're trying to say about our team ? Do you think we have players with bad attitude ?

 

[JerryGarcia]

Why have we achieved more without them then ?

Redknapp also had Gallas, King, Parker, Modric, Bale, VDV and Adebayor and played the strongest team throughout and prioritised the CL at the cost of finishing in the top 4.

I don't know, I know nothing about tactics which is why it was a genuine question. It seemed that teams in Europe weren't able to deal with our all out attacking style though and I thought maybe they're more used to dealing with opponents who play like we do now.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't know, I know nothing about tactics which is why it was a genuine question. It seemed that teams in Europe weren't able to deal with our all out attacking style though and I thought maybe they're more used to dealing with opponents who play like we do now.

One run under Jol (before we played with two wingers by the way and was definitely not all out attack) to the QF's of the Europa and one run to the CL quarters with the likes of Modric, Bale, VDV, in 15 years is a pretty scant evidence of a theory mucker ?

 

[JerryGarcia]

One run under Jol (before we played with two wingers by the way and was definitely not all out attack) to the QF's of the Europa and one run to the CL quarters with the likes of Modric, Bale, VDV, in 15 years is a pretty scant evidence of a theory mucker ?

Although we've been poor in the knockout stages in general, our best results have come playing 442 though haven't they? Maybe it was just that we had Bale Modric and VDV and formation has nothing to do with it.

I'd be interested to see how Redknapp would set the team out with our current squad. Just for a laugh of course, although I would pay to see the look on your face if we reappointed Harry tomorrow.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Although we've been poor in the knockout stages in general, our best results have come playing 442 though haven't they? Maybe it was just that we had Bale Modric and VDV and formation has nothing to do with it.

I'd be interested to see how Redknapp would set the team out with our current squad. Just for a laugh of course, although I would pay to see the look on your face if we reappointed Harry tomorrow.

Pretty sure we reached the qf with AVB didn't we (Basel?) and that wasn't 442.

I think Redknapp had a wonderful group of individuals and prioritised the CL and even then it took heriocs in a couple of games to get us to the qf's where we were mullered.

And Joel's qf was made without two wingers.

So I really think your theory is a dead parrot, defunct, no more, it has ceased to be.

 

[Metalhead]

It has a lot to do with it. We have a specific eleven players who play in a specific formation that really, really works well - it's like Poch found a "cheat" formation on Champ Manager - but regardless of what talent we have on the bench, none of them are a like for like replacement. As soon as we remove any element from that eleven or change the formation, we look really shaky.

Considering how much money is involved and how many matches it adds to the calander, I've often wondered why we don't see teams having a domestic eleven and a european eleven, almost working as separate units entirely, the only real similarities being from the bench. It's not really that unbelievable to think that it could happen in the end - not even a weaker, second string line up, i mean players bought in knowing they will only play european and cup games, won't even be registered in the league squad perhaps, on slightly higher than average wages as a retainer, but less bonus clauses because their sole purpose will be to lift a trophy, and their reward will be staggered accordingly.

That would allow two teams to form and focus on very different formations, tactics, style, etc. instead of having to phase half the team in and out and hope that they can gel as well as the starting eleven do.

I know that's a pretty fantastical idea to many, but i'm not so sure we're far off seeing this come to be a thing. Clubs may well not even acknowledge they do it, but we're certainly heading in that direction when we see eight or nine changes to a lot of sides.

There is a lot to be said for that idea, obviously fans wouldn't feel ripped off by seeing a so-called 'weaker side'. I suppose that it's only when you start seeing injuries that the temptation is to mix and match players unless you have that rule that players are registered to a particular squad.

 

[Cornpattbuck]

Thing is, we don't really look like we're being out tacticed. We just don't look especially bothered.

There's rarely been any drive, passion or concentration in our recent European games. It's bizarre to watch.

 

[crokey]

I think the fans just have no respect for the rest of the teams in Europe. When we go up against the team bottom of the table in the PL, we hear all about how they are "fighting for their lives" and "it will be a tough game" and "I'll settle for 1-0". We play a team in the last 32 of a premier european competition and it ends up being "I want this over in the first leg, 4-0". It's ridiculous. Maybe we are underperforming a little bit, but maybe other teams still in Europe after Christmas are there for a reason and they are also pretty good?

 

[guy]

I think the fans just have no respect for the rest of the teams in Europe. When we go up against the team bottom of the table in the PL, we hear all about how they are "fighting for their lives" and "it will be a tough game" and "I'll settle for 1-0". We play a team in the last 32 of a premier european competition and it ends up being "I want this over in the first leg, 4-0". It's ridiculous. Maybe we are underperforming a little bit, but maybe other teams still in Europe after Christmas are there for a reason and they are also pretty good?

Underperforming is putting it like lightly, the effort level and passion is completely different in Europe for this squad.

Gent were not good, we were just rubbish

 

[djw1973]

It is all to do with the confidence of the opposition. With our tactics we play a high line. If the opposing team is confident enough to press us, then we are put under pressure at the back and our plan A falls flat. Barca and Spain have been found out on several occasions by teams that have the confidence to press. It is why we are successful against the so called weaker teams. When we play a 3 at the back we can flood the midfield and negate any pressing, however when we revert to a 4 we find individual players isolated and no end product.

 

[faze_coys]

Thing is, we don't really look like we're being out tacticed. We just don't look especially bothered.

There's rarely been any drive, passion or concentration in our recent European games. It's bizarre to watch.

Monaco showed us a master class in tactics.

Poch maybe a great coach, but tactically I've always had my doubts.

When we are stronger and fitter than the opposition we dominate, but as soon as we play any team that has astute tactics we often come up short and don't have the answer.... this seems to be exposed in cup competitions a lot more because opposition managers often think about how they will get thru the 90 mins against a team that is probably fitter and will have more possession.

 

[DIEHARD]

Monaco showed us a master class in tactics.

Poch maybe a great coach, but tactically I've always had my doubts.

When we are stronger and fitter than the opposition we dominate, but as soon as we play any team that has astute tactics we often come up short and don't have the answer.... this seems to be exposed in cup competitions a lot more because opposition managers often think about how they will get thru the 90 mins against a team that is probably fitter and will have more possession.

Do you think Poch is tactically weak or do you think he can't implement the tactics he wants because he doesn't have the players?

I think it is a combination of both but he certainly lacks a bit of flexibility in game more prominently and that's due to the lack of different options he has.

 

[SUIYHA]

Pretty sure we reached the qf with AVB didn't we (Basel?) and that wasn't 442.

I think Redknapp had a wonderful group of individuals and prioritised the CL and even then it took heriocs in a couple of games to get us to the qf's where we were mullered.

And Joel's qf was made without two wingers.

So I really think your theory is a dead parrot, defunct, no more, it has ceased to be.

Jol's team had Malbranque and Lennon on the wings did it not? I guess Ghaly played in some games.

 

[faze_coys]

Do you think Poch is tactically weak or do you think he can't implement the tactics he wants because he doesn't have the players?

I think it is a combination of both but he certainly lacks a bit of flexibility in game more prominently and that's due to the lack of different options he has.

There's obviously a Combination of both but more that he is tactically weak tbh.

I think we kind of stumbled on to 4-2-3-1 last season that worked for us the majority of the time, so he's gone out and bought players he thought could slip in to that formation just because they can play in the positions, but you need players who will fit the system, not the formation.

Last season the success in 4-2-3-1 was based on two players imo; lamela pressing from the front, and dier dropping into defence. These two key components set the tone for the rest of the squad (alli pressing, walker n rose free to attack, Eriksen given more free reign, demebele allowed to drive forward, Kane not having to press by himself etc etc) it was like they were the key cogs but now they are missing it just isn't working and yet he is persisting with the same ineffiecint cogs (which is why I think the 3-5-2 we've been playing has brought us some success because it suits our players - walker n rose once again freed up, Eriksen working from deeper, alli playing as a support striker)