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New Stadium Details And Discussions

robertgoulet

SC Resident Crooner Extraordinaire
Jul 23, 2013
3,610
12,552
Yeah, certainly on a job as complex as our stadium the risks of cost cutting are amplified massively. Goes without saying.

The thing I don't understand is that surely we have been employing independent surveyors and consultants to project manage from pre-tender stage through to completion? In particular the M & E consultants working with the presumably independent surveyors and MACE would be checking works and signing them off on an interim basis.

Hard to believe that the issues weren't spotted long before they became widespread.

Of course not, that would have cost extra!
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
...The thing I don't understand is that surely we have been employing independent surveyors and consultants to project manage from pre-tender stage through to completion? In particular the M & E consultants working with the presumably independent surveyors and MACE would be checking works and signing them off on an interim basis.

Hard to believe that the issues weren't spotted long before they became widespread.

There is a widespread assumption in the thread that the defects have resulted from the workers on site not following the specification, followed by inadequate inspection. It's not necessarily so.

I don't know if the tender(s) for the alarm system(s) included an element of contractor design (@Dunc2610 can probably tell us). If so, then it's possible that the subcontractors specified materials or fixing techniques that have subsequently failed tests and/or have been rejected by building control inspectors.

If not, then it's possible that the original performance specification set by Mace or the detailed design by the M&E consultant was incorrect. Or the range of permitted cabling, conduits, etc., included materials that were not compliant with regulations.

We don't know: we'll only find out, if at all, when the almighty contractual barney that will ensue about this has come to a conclusion. But to jump to the conclusion that the works on site have been incompetently carried out is to look at only one of several possibilities.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,890
45,039
For all the talk of the cheap option and getting quantity over quality I'd just like to say what a fantasfic job that cheap quantity have done because the stadium is fantatstic, as for the fire alarm work I'll wait and see.
Just think there seems to be a general consensus developing that the club brought in a load of illiterate labourers and they fucked everything up which is not only bollocks it's a fucking insult to everybody that worked on the project.
Get a bloody grip.
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
For all the talk of the cheap option and getting quantity over quality I'd just like to say what a fantasfic job that cheap quantity have done because the stadium is fantatstic, as for the fire alarm work I'll wait and see.
Just think there seems to be a general consensus developing that the club brought in a load of illiterate labourers and they fucked everything up which is not only bollocks it's a fucking insult to everybody that worked on the project.
Get a bloody grip.

I certainly don’t think that. It would be daft to attempt to build such a modern stadium with so many firsts and technological innovations and get the equivalent of O’reilly from Fawlty Towers to do the job.

I don’t think it takes much of a leap though to suggest that the over ambitious timescale has led to a loss of control and upped the risk of issues like this occurring.
 

Blackrat1299

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2006
5,368
6,404
With the last crane in the process of being dismantled, it almost makes you feel that home is nearly ready.......but we all know its not. definitely closer.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,890
45,039
I certainly don’t think that. It would be daft to attempt to build such a modern stadium with so many firsts and technological innovations and get the equivalent of O’reilly from Fawlty Towers to do the job.

I don’t think it takes much of a leap though to suggest that the over ambitious timescale has led to a loss of control and upped the risk of issues like this occurring.
Depends at which stage they would be likely to test the fire alarm system, it's unlikely they'd have tested it before the various sections were ready and fit for purpose as any additional work leaves the system vulnerable to damage so it's quite possible they'd have only tested it towards the end anyway. I appreciate that may have been a few months before the opening date but there is still no guarantee that it would have been corrected in time, in fact if the gloom merchants are correct and it will now take until the new season it's likely it would be ready only at the end of this season in that scenario.
My main point though was that the possible lack of skilled installation of alarm systems, or parts of it, doesn't and shouldn't lead to people tarring everthing else, all other intallations, with the same brush which seems to be happening.
I am reading that everybody who worked on the project was substandard and every contract was the cheapest option and I am not having that, it's utter rubbish.
 

SirHarryHotspur

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
4,993
7,409
Latest pearls of wisdom from Construction News


At the current rate, Tottenham’s £850m new stadium is due to complete just over three years after it started.
Compared to other projects of a similar scale that is pretty much the expected timeframe for such a job.

The problem is the deadline for completion was seven months ago.
Analysis by Construction News found that of the seven newly built stadiums with capacities above 40,000, constructed after the Taylor Report made all-seater stadiums a requirement, the average length of time taken to build the schemes was more than three years.
In fact, no stadium has been built from scratch in less than three years this century, with the last project completed in less being the Millennium Stadium in 1999.
However, while the time taken to complete the project may be in keeping with previous jobs of a similar scale, missing the deadline for completion is not.
Contrary to popular belief, the majority of big UK stadium projects are delivered on time.
Of the major all-seater projects embarked on post-Taylor Report, only Wembley and Spurs have missed sporting deadlines.
Spurs may have had its issues, but it certainly has not been the seven-year saga that Wembley was. In fact, if the project had set itself a three-year deadline, then it’s likely the job would be on time, making Wembley the real outlier.
But here’s the question the construction industry needs to ask itself: is it unreasonable for Spurs to expect the timeframe for completion to get shorter?
Given there have been meteoric improvements in the speed, efficiency and productivity in other sectors, why should the same not be asked of construction, which constantly comes bottom of the pile when measured against other industries.
The modern stadium is a project of incredible complexity and the reason why it was possible to build the 42,000-seater Stadium of Light in a year back in 1999 is because it doesn’t have the same level of sophistication as the Spurs stadium does.
Many will complain that pushy clients are making infeasible demands, but is it unrealistic to expect an industry to have improved ten years on from the last project of a similar scale (Arsenal’s Emirates 2006)?
One thing that surely isn’t helping is the way in which it is being treated by the banks.
A Spurs spokesman revealed to Construction News this week that main contractors were reluctant to take up the favoured contract options of the scheme’s financial backers: a fixed-price design-and-build arrangement.
The contractors’ reticence is understandable considering the level of risk involved, but with banks reducing lending to the construction sector, is it fair for them to also be pushing for riskier agreements?
The sector needs the ability to invest, particularly if it is going to improve the speed at which it works. Having financial institutions acting this way does little to help.
A demanding client may be difficult, but an unhelpful bank can be disastrous.
Stay tuned tomorrow for an in-depth look at the stadiums sector as well as a fresh exclusive regarding the new Spurs stadium.

Zak Garner-Purkis, head of content, Construction News
 

Dunc2610

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2008
1,588
4,000
There is a widespread assumption in the thread that the defects have resulted from the workers on site not following the specification, followed by inadequate inspection. It's not necessarily so.

I don't know if the tender(s) for the alarm system(s) included an element of contractor design (@Dunc2610 can probably tell us). If so, then it's possible that the subcontractors specified materials or fixing techniques that have subsequently failed tests and/or have been rejected by building control inspectors.

If not, then it's possible that the original performance specification set by Mace or the detailed design by the M&E consultant was incorrect. Or the range of permitted cabling, conduits, etc., included materials that were not compliant with regulations.

We don't know: we'll only find out, if at all, when the almighty contractual barney that will ensue about this has come to a conclusion. But to jump to the conclusion that the works on site have been incompetently carried out is to look at only one of several possibilities.
I can't speak for other packages of work, but I should imagine the big/tecnhical ones had early involvement from specialist subcons like we did. The facade certainly would have, things like m&e don't always as they usually have specialist design companies involved who carry out the design work then the job is tendered for the installer! Unless it's all design and build.
 

robertgoulet

SC Resident Crooner Extraordinaire
Jul 23, 2013
3,610
12,552
New thread from that guy




Sounds like do or die time. I reckon if this works we'll be in this season (March) but if it doesn't we are looking at next season.

I've got a buddy who's pretty high up at JC in the states. I wonder if he knows anything about anything.
 
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Lou3000

£
May 28, 2014
861
2,525
Sounds like do or die time. I reckon if this works we'll be in this season (March) but if it doesn't we are looking at next season.

Yeah, that's exciting if they feel confident enough to go ahead and schedule an inspection, we could have test events relatively quickly. I like to believe we're opening it against Arsenal. I know rumors say that that plan will not get approved, but it would be absolutely unreal. Kane/Dele will likely be fit for that too.
 

hugrr

Gimme some gravey
Aug 17, 2008
11,465
15,136
New thread from that guy


The new software "includes the new detectors" apparently, that doesn't sound right, unless he means they've reconfigured the software so that the loops can now handle a higher amount of devices. Hopefully the hardware can take it.

If they've had to populate the software with all the devices, text messages and cause/effect data over in the states, does that mean they'll have to do the same in future if there are any new devices added? If so that seems like a massive over-complication.
 

Nerine

Juicy corned beef
Jan 27, 2011
4,756
17,217
I'd say this is probably the most positive news we've had in the last week or two.

Let's see what happens...
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,356
3,330
The new software "includes the new detectors" apparently, that doesn't sound right, unless he means they've reconfigured the software so that the loops can now handle a higher amount of devices. Hopefully the hardware can take it.

If they've had to populate the software with all the devices, text messages and cause/effect data over in the states, does that mean they'll have to do the same in future if there are any new devices added? If so that seems like a massive over-complication.
That's certainly how I read it, especially given what Stac has said before on Twitter.

I have no experience with deploying this type of software, but why would the programmers being based in Canada make software updates more complicated? With a system this big I would have thought that the software company would do their programming in-house with simulated data sets before sending an engineer to install and test it. So in terms of the programming, distance from the stadium would not be an issue. Happy to be informed. :)
 

Hoopspur

You have insufficient privileges to reply here!
Jun 28, 2012
6,332
9,703
I like this. But I have resigned myself to it being what it is. Start of next season is critical, and anything this side of that is a bonus imo.

And that is from someone who is an optimist :whistle:
 

spids

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
6,647
27,841
Wow - what a terrible video .... portrait, erratically swerving about, not focussing on anything long enough to see it ... a clear example of how not to capture video on a smart phone. If only they'd used landscape and very slowly panned from left to right.
 
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