My views on Independent article about Bundesliga attracting English talent

IGSpur

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Basically a post I made in the Youth Thread, hope some find it interesting, and I guess takes the debate away from the thread which can frustrate some.

This is a great article with quotes from parents, scouts, and some coaches.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...remier-league-transfer-news-epl-a8729736.html

I found it as another person I interact with on various platform posted it.

I post to share not to create arguments, but this stuff is literally what I and others have been saying for however many years. How much is wasted. I try to convince fans but there is this perception that the manager will know best and if a player isn't played then they are not good enough. There's the fake promises and 'assurances' to keep talented players tied to clubs, where they stagnate and inevitably don't fulfil their potential and get told they were overrated and never good enough. I've said players will play with each other, they will know how good another youngster is, they train with the first team every now and then and can make comparisons. If they see someone not progressing they're wising up to not staying around. Parents are also wising up to the EL/CC con, where they get lip service minutes then fans will think they are being used but they aren't really seriously being considered, it's just to convince that talent to stay. Both in case there is no other option but to use them in a real risk averse but unplanned way, but also if they don't leave the club can't end up with egg on their face.

It mentions how youngsters are considered impatient for not waiting for their opportunity or trusting their club because they want to play at 18, when we know fans will crow about 18 year olds playing in weaker leagues. How there is a lack of trust in youth things many have been saying, and fans defending.

The amount of times, I used to go into the transfer thread and say we don't need to sign this player when we have him, to be mocked or told 'if they were good enough they'd be playing' or 'you don't know you're just a fan and don't see them in training'

Over the summer our fans were all desperate to buy Seri if I went in there and said we should just use so and so, it would have been the same.

I always see fans say, why can't we have scouts and find players like Dortmund do before they blow, and yet when we have those players we go and do what Fulham do anyway.

The scout was confused how they could buy Seri and another player, when they have O'Riley someone I've mentioned many times in the past playing u23 football. In fact I had actually expected him to get chances this year being at Fulham but it's probably affected him, them being in the PL which is why they brought Seri. But that is also our club all over. If we were after a Barca 17/18 year old we'd all be wetting ourselves, yet when Barca were looking at Edwards, and other clubs, and clubs home and abroad were looking at Onomah at 17, we had two major talents on our hands, and there was a lack of trust. We convinced them to stay here, and watch them stagnate and then have the cheek to say they weren't that good. Germany are laughing at us. There are now fans who probably think Marsh is better than Onomah due to what has happened. KWP is still struggling for first team football, and relied on heavy injuries on his side to get a chance. Took his chance,but once our worst players of the season is back and our signing who let's face it has a very questionable attitude are back, he drops to the bench again, and people believe when the manager says he trusts him as much or he is a genuine squad player. Yet doesn't get rotated in anywhere near as much unless there are injuries.

The only reason Hudosn-Odoi is now being played by Chelsea is because another club want to sign him. If Bayern weren't pursuing him so hard, they wouldn't care about him. Players like Baker, Colkett, Barker, Onomah,Chalobah, Edwards, Roberts absolutely wasted, as they were still being sold dreams and naively trusting the PL managers and clubs. It's great to see for England's sake that the players and more importantly the parents are starting to realise what is going on.

Annoyingly a lot of the 96/97/98s are still tied into contracts and are still stagnating, but hopefully they do the right thing and get out of their clubs and try to just go abroad. I'm aware they can't all go to Germany it doesn't make sense but France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland just get out, as staying here is a shamble.

I've posted quotes from scouts international and English, coaches here and abroad, sporting directors here and abroad, articles or information on other clubs being interested in our own players and yet the overriding belief that seems impossible to break here and I stress at every single PL club, so again no Poch attack here, is that why would a manager not play them if they were good enough to play for the first team, therefore said player is being overhyped and won't ever make it here. I've gone on Bluemoon the same was said about Sancho, I went on the Shedend the same is being said about Hudson-Odoi, impatient, trust the manager, if they don't want to trust and have a bad attitude they can leave, who can they replace, they've only played u23 football, they're arrogant, they manager wouldn't shoot himself in the foot on purpose, it's high risk, they're inexperienced. And yet there are fans here who believe that if those 'special' players were here things would be different whilst also simultaneously saying that our first eleven as good as everyone elses. There are always special players at other clubs, as we believe that other clubs have issues with giving youngsters a chance. But there aren't special players here as we know they'd get a chance if they were at the same level.

There are of course some fans that really want the chances to be given, but the general belief is the manager knows best, and when his head is on the block fair enough if he doesn't want to take the risk, but it's the lack of acknowledgement that these players are being wasted or are overhyped that is annoying or at fault for everything that is annoying to me. And clubs, if you're not going to use them let them go. There's not much that can be done as most fans won't see these players and really and truly trying to convince the fans of anything means nothing as that won't get them played but I post to firstly share what is going on in the youth world, but then also because I am passionate about wanting our club and country to do well, and I think we waste sooo much time and resources looking elsewhere when 8 times out of 10 we have a better player than anyone we can sign right under our nose.

Anyway here's another ex-Barca and current Wolves scout chiming in realising how much our players are being undervalued. After the great summer of 2017 I think people believed that things might be different in the PL, I said I think there'd be a lot of talk and good will and things will go back to normal and it basically has. Also so long as the PL is the richest league I don't things will change here as clubs are happy to buy em back. My number one concern we are producing equal talent but are most hamstrung by finances that is why I'm so frustrated by our own situation.

https://twitter.com/miguelrios__/status/1083099116794728448
 

eViL

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#2
Until they tier and cap transfer fees and wages you will always end up with the best talent at the biggest clubs, who have the toughest route to the first team.

It's a vicious circle and the FA + Football Leagues need to step in if they want to keep British talent in Britain.

Wages should be capped for all players under 23 to allow the players to choose a club they could be playing for rather than being paid to train at.
 

IGSpur

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Until they tier and cap transfer fees and wages you will always end up with the best talent at the biggest clubs, who have the toughest route to the first team.
I think it's the level of coaching that mainly contributes to the best players being at the best clubs. I'm sure there are some underhand tactics but even if they didn't offer extra incentive to parents, I'd be surprised if you didn't take the offer to join City or Chelsea because their coaching is so good. However, I do agree to an extent that if the money wasn't there they may look for first team pathways more, but then that would require going to a EFL club where the coaching is a lot worse, plus there are less loan opportunities so you really are dependent on being that ONE that comes through.

It of course does help sometimes you get talents in the EFL club who either resisted temptations to join the top clubs at a young age or developed later like Gomez, Alli and Maddison, but generally speaking the reason there is so much talent at the moment is because the top 6 clubs are either producing them themselves or taking talents and making them better. If the Top 6 clubs weren't this good there wouldn't be as much of an issue as we wouldn't have won all of those competitions imo. So it's good to have them there its how to get them out after.

Now the academy players know their value I believe they should stay at the club until 16 but just don't sign the pro and leave, and go to whatever club shows their interest. If they go abroad the big clubs will be losing players for very small fees, and it would be interesting to see how they react. Imagine Chelsea producing top quality and at 17 they lose 5/6 players per season. I wonder what they would do

I think that would be the only way for top clubs to realise what they are missing out on.
 

Locotoro

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#4
I think the problem will continue until changes are imposed on the league system or the club's. The club's cannot be relied upon to self regulate as the money is too much to miss out on.

Either the FA allow B teams in the league system and put a cap on squad sizes or they have a requirement of 2 U23 players in each match day subs list.
 
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#5
I’d like to see the FA look at incentivising clubs for playing club developed talent. Can’t see the league doing it but maybe the FA. For example, once a club-developed player makes x number of appearances for them (staggered amounts depending on competition, PL, EL, CL, Championship etc) it might be more incentive for them to play them. Also, the club are rewarded financially for youth products beyond stockpiling players in the hope of a transfer fee, therefore incentivising more investment in academy and coaching.

Only way you’ll see major strides is by monetising it further.
 

DCSPUR

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#6
I know this makes me sound super defensive of Poch but I re-read Brave New World yesterday and it is evident in a contemporaneous manner that he both rated and wanted Josh and Edwards to push on. It is also clear during that period that he was very hard with inferior buys such as GKN and, at the time, Sissoko (different ages i know). It just seems as if things didn't work out for edwards and josh (though still have hopes for the latter) for v different reasons.....even in BNW Poch eludes to Edwards off field challenges while talking effusively about him. With Josh, I just think he has been a bit unlucky and also that edge may be missing.
 

double0

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#8
I actually agree with a lot of what the poster is saying. There are unbelievable talented players in the academies across the country who are itching for a chance's but because of contracts and commitments made to other players they ain't getting that chance...Onomah sadly is an example. I hope in the case of Onomah it is rectified by Poch , seriously tho we need to give our development players more chances.

Kane's out for a while now so we should be looking to promote instead of always looking at the transfer market.
 

IGSpur

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Under Poch youngsters will always get a chancy if they work hard enough and are good enough.
I think that is just a meaningless platitude, that used tbh. What does a chance look like? What is working hard enough? What is good enough?

There is so much double standards and lack of clarity between the different points that just reeling that off his pointless. I wrote a longer post to this but it got deleted and I'm sure you don't want to have a long debate, but it's one of those football clichés where people who are also invovled heavily in the game, know it isn't true anymore.

I know this makes me sound super defensive of Poch but I re-read Brave New World yesterday and it is evident in a contemporaneous manner that he both rated and wanted Josh and Edwards to push on. It is also clear during that period that he was very hard with inferior buys such as GKN and, at the time, Sissoko (different ages i know). It just seems as if things didn't work out for edwards and josh (though still have hopes for the latter) for v different reasons.....even in BNW Poch eludes to Edwards off field challenges while talking effusively about him. With Josh, I just think he has been a bit unlucky and also that edge may be missing.
Eveyrone is super defensive of their club and manager. THe same way you defend Poch, I will go onto a City forum and they will defend Pep regarding Sancho , and some will defend Sarri and Hudson-Odoi. At some point someones got to admit that they are all doing badly or everything is OK, unless you can specify why you think Poch is anymore likely to use an academy player than anyone else
 

spursfan77

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#10
The teams I have a problem with most are those that sit in the middle of the premier league. Not good enough for the top 4 but also not bad enough to be relegated. Teams like Watford, Bournemouth, Everton, Palace, West Ham. They should be trying to get the best English kids (in fairness Everton are at younger age groups) by offering them opportunities faster.

Sure Man City and Chelsea can offer more money but the level of coaching can’t be that much different. Why don’t these clubs put more money into coaching at lower age groups to help produce younger players, which they might be able to sell on at higher prices. Eg. West Ham sign nasri on a massive contract. Do they really need him or should they not be short sighted and put that money towards signing up kids and coaches instead. I guess it depends on their priorities.
 

DCSPUR

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#11
I think that is just a meaningless platitude, that used tbh. What does a chance look like? What is working hard enough? What is good enough?

There is so much double standards and lack of clarity between the different points that just reeling that off his pointless. I wrote a longer post to this but it got deleted and I'm sure you don't want to have a long debate, but it's one of those football clichés where people who are also invovled heavily in the game, know it isn't true anymore.



Eveyrone is super defensive of their club and manager. THe same way you defend Poch, I will go onto a City forum and they will defend Pep regarding Sancho , and some will defend Sarri and Hudson-Odoi. At some point someones got to admit that they are all doing badly or everything is OK, unless you can specify why you think Poch is anymore likely to use an academy player than anyone else
3 quick points:
1. Winks quickly moving towards starter for club and country under Poch
2. Skipp moving in a v positive direction re: first team
3. Shown an ability to integrate, improve and support young English talent not from the academy

Wanted Sancho for eg from City academy.

Perhaps the issue with Spurs specifically is that Josh and Marcus are missing something/ been unlucky with injuries?

No way you can put Pep/ City and Poch/ Spurs into the same bracket when it comes to academy/ English youth....its just a bit silly

And as a PS, I keep hearing that Josh is more talented than Winks (as an illustration that he is mishandled).
Perhaps when they were kids but now, under Poch, Winks is turning into a star:

#thfc midfielder Harry Winks has the highest passing accuracy (91.82%), the most passes (75.67) per 90 minutes and the second most touches (87.34) per 90 minutes of all players at the club to have played 10+ games in the @PremerLeague this season.
 
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Shanks

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#12
Marked thread as I need a good read of this, my boy is an academy player so I get to see a fair bit of what happens.
 
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