Levy, ENIC and DC

[vegassd]

I know a person like this IRL and he is a total snake.

Why do you have to go there?

There's a Spurs fan trying to express his opinion of the club's owners and he hasn't used words like "gullible" or "brainwashed" or "sheep" or lots of the usual crap that gets shared around. The ability to be polite whilst disagreeing with someone isn't necessarily a sign of being a snake... it can just be a sign of being polite.

Wouldn't it be nice to have just one thread about the owners without it descending into a pit of flaming and trolling? Probably too much to ask for!!

 

[LeParisien]

Come on mate, you've been presented with considered and well-reasoned arguments, and to just reduce those views to, "it's only cos you hate Levy" is lazy and deflecting at best; facetious and demeaning at worst. You've always struck me as a fair-minded sort of bloke, so I'm sure this is just an attempt at sarcasm/humour on your part. But even so, why not "just play the post instead of the man/men"? For the record, I don't hate anyone; and certainly not Levy, I've never even met the guy. I'd just like to see investment in the squad. Pure and simple. That isn't some anti-Levy agenda; it's a pro-Spurs agenda.

I was just kidding mate. Peace

COYS

 

[Styopa]

I do agree with the notion that once the stadium move is complete, in line with the aging/ potential loss of certain squad members, a lack of investment in the squad will be concerning. However, until last year we have signed at least one player every summer who has subsequent heavily contributed to our progression, so based on available evidence last summer is an anomaly in my opinion rather than a sign of things to come.

As for the hiring of a man who is able to successfully work within our parameters and in line with our growth plan (footballing and financial), I think it was neither genius nor luck, merely a case of sticking to the target blueprint and getting it right. Every manager appointed since Hoddle has been someone who has in some guise proven he can develop youth and improve players. Santini had at Lyon (and Jol at RKC), Ramos at Sevilla, even Harry, an appointment made in a desperate moment, at West Ham, and AVB at Porto. The thing with Pochettino which has elevated him above the rest is that he is the first to have done so in the premier league during the modern era, so he was an obvious long term appointment. The alternatives were Van Gaal and De Boer who also had such reputations. Pochettino was the culmination of a long line of appointments who, with varying degrees of success, were identified as having a certain skill set which fit a blue print devised in 2004 by Pleat and Arnesen. So, not luck, not genius, just sticking to a method until it reaped the reward (much like our late winners in our past three matches). Additionally, Pochettino has benefitted from our infrastructure as much as we have from his ability. This is why I, and many others, don’t fixate on the lack of spending, because we believe the club has devised a plan, it staying loyalty to it, and that plan is bearing fruit.

As for the consequences of any sale, you are providing a very ominous scenario but surely without knowing who is the buyer, and what are their intentions, there is no way of knowing what the outcome of a sale is as we only know of one party, the vendor.

I think most of this is right. Even the staunchest anti-ENIC supporter would have concede we are in a far healthier position than we were when ENIC acquired us nearly 20 years ago - both on and off the pitch. In the 10 full seasons immediately prior to the ENIC takeover the highest position we realised was 7th and in 7 of those 10 seasons we finished 10th or lower. Whereas in the last 10 seasons we have finished 4th or higher 5 times and in the last 5 seasons we have finished 3rd or higher 3 times. In 2016-17 we also achieved our best league position since 1962-63 season. No one can deny this is major progress. We also have good reason to believe that this progress is a direct result of the 'plan' devised by ENIC/club a number of years ago.

Where I think the two opposing camps disagree is whether we are progressing quickly enough and whether ENIC, having got us this far, are able/willing to take us onto the next level. The lack of silverware during ENIC's stewardship of the club is disappointing (just 1 league cup, whereas even during the dreadful 90s we won an FA cup and a League Cup) but during that time it has been more important to establish the club as a competitive force in the league. But the years ahead present a different challenge - will the supporters be happy to go another 10 seasons without a trophy? Having achieved the holy grail of semi-regular Champions League qualification and the new stadium nearly ready will ENIC now be happy to tread water satisfied with winning the '4th place trophy' and anything else being just a nice bonus?

The last two transfer windows have been disappointing because it appears we have neglected to invest in several areas of the squad that will soon need urgent attention. Generally it seems to work better to integrate 1-2 players a window rather than 4-5 at one time, yet we could easily be in a position of needing to replace 4 or 5 key players this summer. In this respect it is not just about lack of spending, so much as using the windows appropriately to freshen up the squad and gradually embed new players in the team. Therefore it will be interesting to see what transpires during the summer and if there is a lot of changing personnel how that affects our start to the season.

 

[Lighty64]

Think new owners will be a problem. Putin had his world cup so is no longer pressuring the oligarchs to buy football clubs.
We are unlikely to get an arab buyer with our jewish links and the star of david waved at games.
That leaves us with chinese or us investors.

I don't know if new owners will be better or worse but i would like some sort of new investment. It will be years before the stadium is paid for. Can we afford a zero net spend for that long? We face the possibility of eriksen, toby and jan gone in the next 6-18 months. Poch must be thinking that a job with funds will make it easier to win things.

to be honest with a decent namings right, the NFL deal, Nikes improved shirts deal, and other events we should hopefully cover the annual loans with a good part of that income. we might even get a better shirt sponsor, and really not being funny, but a better colour on the shirts will make even more money.

to then count the cost we charge for exec and ST's then I really can't see payments for the stadium effecting us anywhere near it did Arsenal. hopefully ENIC will prove the doubters wrong, because I can't see them sell a product for 2b if that product isn't working in all corners.

with Toby I expect to go the problem is that will be in the last 2 weeks of the window, and with Foyth, Sanchez and even Dier. with Jan I wouldn't be shocked he saw his contract out then headed back to Belgium or Holland, after seeing it a couple of times this season, I'd not be disappointed to use Davies there, and hopefully a better LWB brought in. Eriksen if he has his heart on RM either he will go in the summer with the possibility of a player coming the opposite way, or we will receive a decent fee, or unfortunately he will wait to go for free

 

[Lilbaz]

to be honest with a decent namings right, the NFL deal, Nikes improved shirts deal, and other events we should hopefully cover the annual loans with a good part of that income. we might even get a better shirt sponsor, and really not being funny, but a better colour on the shirts will make even more money.

to then count the cost we charge for exec and ST's then I really can't see payments for the stadium effecting us anywhere near it did Arsenal. hopefully ENIC will prove the doubters wrong, because I can't see them sell a product for 2b if that product isn't working in all corners.

with Toby I expect to go the problem is that will be in the last 2 weeks of the window, and with Foyth, Sanchez and even Dier. with Jan I wouldn't be shocked he saw his contract out then headed back to Belgium or Holland, after seeing it a couple of times this season, I'd not be disappointed to use Davies there, and hopefully a better LWB brought in. Eriksen if he has his heart on RM either he will go in the summer with the possibility of a player coming the opposite way, or we will receive a decent fee, or unfortunately he will wait to go for free

Obviously levy doesn't believe that it will cover the costs or he wouldn't be trying for a bond issue. Nike and aia have already signed new deals with us i wouldn't expect a change in the next few years. Our stadium also costs a lot more than the emirates and we don't have highbury to sell. Expect an almost zero net spend for the next 3 years or so. Naming rights would be a bonus but sponsors are moving to online advertising now.

I think levy has done a great job, i don't want him gone but we need investment from somewhere.

 

[coys200]

I’ve got to say when you watch the latest cowlings video you start to realise just how magnificent the stadium is. Imo any shortcomings in the transfer market are far outweighed by the achievement of building this stadium on the original WHL. He has left a legacy for the next 100 years. Yes you can say it’s not his money, but the fact Is he has pulled it together and got the job done. Abramovich has failed to do it. If he walks away from Chelsea in 5 years with no stadium built where will they be ? Left with a hugely outdated stadium unable to compete and could easily fall to mid table or worse. At least Levy has guaranteed us a seat at the top table for the next 50-100 years.

 

[Lilbaz]

I’ve got to say when you watch the latest cowlings video you start to realise just how magnificent the stadium is. Imo any shortcomings in the transfer market are far outweighed by the achievement of building this stadium on the original WHL. He has left a legacy for the next 100 years. Yes you can say it’s not his money, but the fact Is he has pulled it together and got the job done. Abramovich has failed to do it. If he walks away from Chelsea in 5 years with no stadium built where will they be ? Left with a hugely outdated stadium unable to compete and could easily fall to mid table or worse. At least Levy has guaranteed us a seat at the top table for the next 50-100 years.

The stadium is great and all but you wouldn't swap it for 1x cl, 5x pl, 5x fa cup, 3x lc, 1x el, with the chance of a new owner building a new stadium?

 

[Buggsy61]

The stadium is great and all but you wouldn't swap it for 1x cl, 5x pl, 5x fa cup, 3x lc, 1x el, with the chance of a new owner building a new stadium?

I think everyone would, but there was no guarantee of getting that if we hadn't invested in the stadium, and ploughed it into the team instead.
By putting our money into the stadium and training ground it puts the club on a much more sustainable footing where we really can fulfil our potential (financially and on the pitch) and increase our chances of getting those trophies - which is what its all about really.

 

[Lilbaz]

I think everyone would, but there was no guarantee of getting that if we hadn't invested in the stadium, and ploughed it into the team instead.
By putting our money into the stadium and training ground it puts the club on a much more sustainable footing where we really can fulfil our potential (financially and on the pitch) and increase our chances of getting those trophies - which is what its all about really.

I'm not saying there is and understand why we have invested in stadium and training ground. I was just answering @coys200 as he made the comparrison.

 

[dudu]

ENIC are infinitely better than Alan Sugar. ENIC are far better and more competent than most other owners. We as a club have progressed in a fantastic fashion under ENIC’s ownership. Daniel Levy is a better Chairman than 90% of PL chairmen.

I doubt many fans would disagree about any of the above, even the most vocal anti-BSoDL like me.

The debate, such as it is, is whether having been genius enough / lucky enough (take your pick) to appoint possibly one of the top 3 coaches in the world they are ambitious or bold enough to do what is necessary to take the next step. Perhaps the biggest divide is with respect to what ENIC’s ambitions are. Having asked us as fans to cough up so much money are they about to move to the next phase where we really compete in terms of squad investment or are they just stringing us along while working very hard in the background to monetise their investment. As you know I am firmly in the latter camp. Thankfully we won’t have to wait long to see who is right as I think if we see the usual zero net spend this summer fewer of the BSoDL will remain patient, although I’m sure there are some who for as long as Poch works his magic and keeps us in the top 4 will buy each new excuse ad infinitum.

Where I also differ from many is in being blasé about an ENIC sale. Many seem to think this is a non-event rather than a potentially catastrophic event that will set us up to need to extract large amounts of cash each year to deliver a return to the new owner, cash that by definition won’t be available to be spent on the squad.

Question.

Do you think Lpool would have purchased VVD and Allison had they not have sold coutiniho?

Ok they still spent a decent chunk of cash on them but would they have been able to get those pieces of the puzzle in their team without the funds made available for that sale?

ENIC have spent before when there has been money available to spend. We paid a huge fee for a CB not very long ago at all. So as far as I am concerned, when we as a club can afford to buy the right player, we will. We have before and we will again.

If fans can't excersize paitence for longer than a year or two then there is more wrong with the fan base than the actual club, in my humble opinion.

 

[Lilbaz]

Question.

Do you think Lpool would have purchased VVD and Allison had they not have sold coutiniho?

Ok they still spent a decent chunk of cash on them but would they have been able to get those pieces of the puzzle in their team without the funds made available for that sale?

ENIC have spent before when there has been money available to spend. We paid a huge fee for a CB not very long ago at all. So as far as I am concerned, when we as a club can afford to buy the right player, we will. We have before and we will again.

If fans can't excersize paitence for longer than a year or two then there is more wrong with the fan base than the actual club, in my humble opinion.

A year or two? Be real i have been arguing with @Mullers for about a decade now on this and i was on levy's side. Still am just think we need new investment.

 

[coys200]

The stadium is great and all but you wouldn't swap it for 1x cl, 5x pl, 5x fa cup, 3x lc, 1x el, with the chance of a new owner building a new stadium?

Take it to your own life. Would you rather be the middle aged geezer in the bar looking back on his glory days or the young buck with it to look forward to. For all we know our Abramovich days could be just round the corner in that stadium. It’s like the thread I started a few months back. There’s absolutely nothing stopping us being an elite superpower now bar some investment in players everything else is in place.
People can talk about the stadium show pictures and videos. But I honestly believe the perception of THFC will change overnight when people actually see this team play in that stadium.

 

[Lilbaz]

Take it to your own life. Would you rather be the middle aged geezer in the bar looking back on his glory days or the young buck with it to look forward to. For all we know our Abramovich days could be just round the corner in that stadium. It’s like the thread I started a few months back. There’s absolutely nothing stopping us being an elite superpower now bar some investment in players everything else is in place.
People can talk about the stadium show pictures and videos. But I honestly believe the perception of THFC will change overnight when people actually see this team play in that stadium.

What's to stop chelsea keeping on going? Sunderland and arsenal have built new stadiums are they swimming in fanny?

I hope that the stadium will help bring success and we have a great future but comparing enic to abramovich is insane. There is not a single chelsea supporter who doesn't think roman is the second coming. Compare that to enic and the numerous threads on this site alone.

 

[[email protected]]

I think this sentiment is probably one of the biggest dividing lines between the two sides of the ENIC debate. If you (or anyone) view the stadium build as purely a capital investment designed to make money then you will have a negative view of ENIC. If you (or anyone) view it as an amazing sports arena designed to help the team be successful you will have a positive view. The reality is likely somewhere in between... it's been built to help the club whilst being a relatively risk-free way to spend money and protect value.

Unfortunately this debate seems to push people to the extreme ends of the conversation where it's very hard to hear what others are saying. We go from being on different sides of the fence to then being in the next garden along, then the next and the next, and before you know it we're at opposite ends of the street hurling accusations etc! Calling it a "fantasy we've been sold" seems a touch OTT to me, and I think is unnecessary given the very level tone of much of your post.


And another key divider which is essentially one summer transfer window; I don't think that January is a window to really judge anything, especially considering the lack of action from other clubs. I'm baffled as to why we didn't get anything done last summer but I'm not going to judge the merits of ENIC solely on that. It was an unprecedented thing to do, but as a club we're in an unprecedented time.

I don't think the stadium build provides carte blanche for not strengthening by the way, and I don't think that the excuse for repaying debt will wash with fans once we are back home. However, I think that it does warrant a bit of extra leeway in terms of spending at the moment. Like most businesses I would guess that ENIC want to see financial stability when parting with big chunks of cash - or maybe predictability is a better word to use. To my mind that would help explain why they appear very willing to invest in the bricks-and-mortar stuff as opposed to the volatile business of player transfers. Throw in the odd Janssen and Soldado and it adds fuel to that fire.

Had we pushed the boat out in terms of player spending last summer I think we may well be in a cup final right now and be on a similar points tally to Liverpool. Or it could have gone the opposite way - impossible to tell. But I could see us facing some really tough financial choices due to the stadium delays. Would we have been able to pay for all the overtime that's gone in to moving the build along? Would we have had to arrange Wembley for the full season to negotiate a better rental deal? Would we have been able to extend the borrowing facility like we did if we were already stretched? It's impossible to tell, especially without knowing all the ins and outs, but I can definitely see those things being problems. It's why I think this is an unprecedented time for us.

Again, I think that the real truth of last summer will exist somewhere in the middle of all these opinions. But saying things like "misinformation we're spun" and "future spending power myth" only moves us further away from that messy middle ground where much of real life happens.

And I totally appreciate that there are some full-blooded ENIC fans out there who can get into fairly extreme hyperbole going the other way. I find it just as grating.

A brilliantly fair-minded, and balanced post. And one that gives plenty of "food for thought". Thanks, Vegas! Your posts make for a really interesting (and refreshingly courteous) read, mate. I think you're absolutely right that the perception of what the NWHL is genuinely being built for - a prime mover for greater investment in the squad, or purely a property asset that multiplies ENIC's sale value - is fundamental in colouring our view of the owners. I guess next summer will be pivotal again (isn't it always?!) in determining what ENIC's true motives are, mate. Take it easy Vegas!

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

At least Levy has guaranteed us a seat at the top table for the next 50-100 years.

What a strange thing to say. Football could change massively at some point in the future and it wouldn't be the first time.

We're guaranteed nothing.

 

[Buggsy61]

What a strange thing to say. Football could change massively at some point in the future and it wouldn't be the first time.

We're guaranteed nothing.

True, the landscape is always changing, but good management and this stadium will increase the chances. I am the most optimistic I have ever been - going to the fan familiarisation event back in November saw to that.
All the pictures and cameras etc don't do it justice. When you are there it has a real aura about it, and will be something to be proud of. Its bound to be an attraction for top quality players and managers alike.

 

[dudu]

A year or two? Be real i have been arguing with @Mullers for about a decade now on this and i was on levy's side. Still am just think we need new investment.

In 2017/2018 season we bought Sanchez, Aurier, Moura, Llorente and Forth. 100 odd million of players.

And it's not like we arent having money invested in the club, just not in the team or at least in terms of new players. I'm pretty sure heafty new contracts for our big players can be seen as an investment too.

I agree we need to freshen things up new player wise too though and I hope we will see some signings in the summer.

 

[Lilbaz]

In 2017/2018 season we bought Sanchez, Aurier, Moura, Llorente and Forth. 100 odd million of players.

And it's not like we arent having money invested in the club, just not in the team or at least in terms of new players. I'm pretty sure heafty new contracts for our big players can be seen as an investment too.

I agree we need to freshen things up new player wise too though and I hope we will see some signings in the summer.

Yes and we had to sell players in order to do so. Would you not like a level playing field? Where the money we generate can be invested in players Rather than having to sell before we buy? I'm not bashing enic or levy, i'm just saying we need investment (somehow). I don't even want an oligarch or sheikh, just for the stadium payments not to hold us back.

We are not having money invested in the club we are borrowing, that money has to be paid back with interest. At the moment the debt stands at £600m according to the papers. How long will that take to pay back?

 

[dudu]

Yes and we had to sell players in order to do so. Would you not like a level playing field? Where the money we generate can be invested in players Rather than having to sell before we buy? I'm not bashing enic or levy, i'm just saying we need investment (somehow). I don't even want an oligarch or sheikh, just for the stadium payments not to hold us back.

I agree mate! Hopefully some money will be available to help push us further.

A lot of clubs do sell their best players and cash in though.... Would hate to sell any of our current crop but the reality is it might just happen and allow for some reinvestment

 

[Lighty64]

Yes and we had to sell players in order to do so. Would you not like a level playing field? Where the money we generate can be invested in players Rather than having to sell before we buy? I'm not bashing enic or levy, i'm just saying we need investment (somehow). I don't even want an oligarch or sheikh, just for the stadium payments not to hold us back.

We are not having money invested in the club we are borrowing, that money has to be paid back with interest. At the moment the debt stands at £600m according to the papers. How long will that take to pay back?

the only guarantee part of the "we had too", was because Walker wanted out. we bought Aurier in his place