Lets all laugh at Newcastle

[Marty]

I can only assume it's linked to their consistently high home-game attendance figures.

I think at a minimum they bring in crowds in the 40000s, and up to 50000, and did so even in the Championship.

There are hardly any clubs in the UK that can do that.

That said, football has moved on and if you're looking to be considered a truly 'big' club, you have to have an international fanbase and compete in the CL (or at least the Europa League) on a consistent basis.

Pretty much. They were getting there during the Keegan and later the Robson years but since 2005 both Ashley and the previous owners have done almost everything wrong and that potential international fanbase has not materialised.

 

[Gassin's finest]

I don't know where this "big club" tag comes from, maybe they are in the north east but they are in terms of general football in England. Since I started following football in 1987 they have pretty much been a yo yo team or bottom half of the table except for a few good years under Keegan. Yet the media bang on about it like they are. I find it utterly bizarre.

Depends on how you define "big" I suppose. Under Keegan, Dalglish and Robson they were finishing 2nd and playing CL. They certainly had a lot of money under John Hall... I suppose they still are quite rich, just their owner is a tight bastard.

Historically, they are a very influential club, having been one of the first clubs to adopt the Scottish passing game, which led to them being dominant for about 10 years. That team directly influenced the way our own club developed, when Peter McWilliam became our manager.

 

[spursfan77]

Depends on how you define "big" I suppose. Under Keegan, Dalglish and Robson they were finishing 2nd and playing CL. They certainly had a lot of money under John Hall... I suppose they still are quite rich, just their owner is a tight bastard.

Historically, they are a very influential club, having been one of the first clubs to adopt the Scottish passing game, which led to them being dominant for about 10 years. That team directly influenced the way our own club developed, when Peter McWilliam became our manager.

It can change from time to time. I'd say one that currently wins trophies and competes in the champions league at a high level for a sustained period of time. Newcastle are a big club in Newcastle, but there is a lot of romanticism surrounding them.

 

[Gassin's finest]

It can change from time to time. I'd say one that currently wins trophies and competes in the champions league at a high level for a sustained period of time. Newcastle are a big club in Newcastle, but there is a lot of romanticism surrounding them.

Newcastle are the only club in Newcastle and Tyneside.

And there's as much romanticism as there is for any provincial club. Those clubs are as much about their towns and cities as anything else. It was the escape and entertainment for most of industrial Britain. Football on the Saturday, Church on the Sunday was how communities grew outside of the factories, shipyards and mines. Its the same with Spurs, and how our club grew. Newcastle have a romantic history, same as us.

 

[wakefieldyid]

Depends on how you define "big" I suppose. Under Keegan, Dalglish and Robson they were finishing 2nd and playing CL. They certainly had a lot of money under John Hall... I suppose they still are quite rich, just their owner is a tight bastard.

John Hall had rescued the club in 1992, using some of the wealth he'd generated from various high profile property developments. However, the really controversial figure from that era was Freddy Shepherd, the opportunist who ultimately took over control from the Hall family and then wasted no opportunity to shaft Newcastle's devoted fan-base. The fans' hatred of Shepherd was a key reason why they were initially inclined to give Ashley the benefit of the doubt.

 

['O Zio]

I tend to agree. He’s done a decent job there, but Eddie Howe has done a much better job at Bournemouth with fewer resources.

I’m not convinced that Rafa is such an elite manager tbh. Effective under certain circumstances, but probably not the best manager to get the best out of a middling club/squad like Newcastle.

Your point on resources doesn't really stand up to scrutiny to be honest. During Benitez's time with Newcastle, Bournemouth have actually spent more than they have. Newcastle have plenty of resources but Benitez doesn't actually seem to have access to them.

So Eddie Howe has done well with Bournemouth, but I'd say he's got a better squad, has spent more money, and doesn't have to put up with an unworkable situation behind the scenes with all the off-the-field politics. Whether or not youre a massive fan of Benitez, it's hard to really argue that he isn't the best manager they've had in ages and losing him is going to set them back massively.

 

[Gassin's finest]

John Hall had rescued the club in 1992, using some of the wealth he'd generated from various high profile property developments. However, the really controversial figure from that era was Freddy Shepherd, the opportunist who ultimately took over control from the Hall family and then wasted no opportunity to shaft Newcastle's devoted fan-base. The fans' hatred of Shepherd was a key reason why they were initially inclined to give Ashley the benefit of the doubt.

Aye, they don't like Shepherd too much up there. Rag and Bone man from Benwell, who wheedled his way into Hall's inner circle... I think he was mates with Hall's son? The sacking of Bobby was the final straw (although some will argue that Robson was past it, and couldn't control his party-time squad).

I remember them being so excited about Ashley buying the club and getting Allardyce in. They thought the good times were coming back.

 

[Metalhead]

Aye, they don't like Shepherd too much up there. Rag and Bone man from Benwell, who wheedled his way into Hall's inner circle... I think he was mates with Hall's son? The sacking of Bobby was the final straw (although some will argue that Robson was past it, and couldn't control his party-time squad).

I remember them being so excited about Ashley buying the club and getting Allardyce in. They thought the good times were coming back.

It's hard to imagine Ashley having the incentive to sell. He has a nice, steady income from the club and by association, his sports retail empire; he is pretty thick skinned to abuse from the fans and so the only way that the fans would shift him is to boycott the club but they won't do that.

 

[Gassin's finest]

It's hard to imagine Ashley having the incentive to sell. He has a nice, steady income from the club and by association, his sports retail empire; he is pretty thick skinned to abuse from the fans and so the only way that the fans would shift him is to boycott the club but they won't do that.

He's been saying the clubs for sale since 2008. Eleven years later and he's still there, raking in the profits and not substantially reinvesting. He's a retail man, he couldn't care less about the football.

 

[King of Otters]

Comparing the situations is disingenuous. Its not about giving him a free pass. Benitez has been deified on Tyneside because he fought the toxicity of Ashley and the depressing mood that has haunted the city for far too long. He not only understood the fans, he became one of them, giving back to the city and mingling with them. He 'got' the city, in a way no one has since Bobby. Look at the huge banners, the flags, the energy inside St James' last season. That wouldn't happen for Pardew (who got them 5th) because all Pard's did was push a ref and nut an opposition player.

Rafa brought them some dignity and someone they could support and get behind, because they knew he was on their side, against the regime that has ruined their club. Ashley, as usual, hasn't backed him, and just let his contract run out. Because 1) he doesn't care, and 2) Rafa had the support of the fans against him. Hence, its a real travesty that he's left. Whoever comes in now, the fans are going to be giving up, because they know they'll never feel like that again until Ashley is gone.

Ok, fair enough, he's given the fans a figure to rally around. but this is the same fanbase who literally thought Kevin Keegan was god, so a little perspective is needed here. Conversely, I think his reputation has benefited simply by playing into the crowd's hatred of the Ashley regime. Anyone who stands in opposition to arguably the most hated figure in the club's history is going to find some friends on Tyneside, and Benitez is a shrewd enough guy to use that to his advantage.

Don't get me wrong, Ashley is a pretty poor chairman, and a classless individual, but I think he has been scapegoated a little bit by a fanbase who have wildly unrealistic expectations of where their club should stand in the pecking order.

If you look at net spend over the past five years, Newcastle have a net spend pretty much the same as Watford and much more than Southampton.

The idea that Benitez has been labouring on scraps is a myth. One he's happy to use as a fig leaf for his failure to take Newcastle to anything beyond bottom half obscurity.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Ok, fair enough, he's given the fans a figure to rally around. but this is the same fanbase who literally thought Kevin Keegan was god, so a little perspective is needed here. Conversely, I think his reputation has benefited simply by playing into the crowd's hatred of the Ashley regime. Anyone who stands in opposition to arguably the most hated figure in the club's history is going to find some friends on Tyneside, and Benitez is a shrewd enough guy to use that to his advantage.

Don't get me wrong, Ashley is a pretty poor chairman, and a classless individual, but I think he has been scapegoated a little bit by a fanbase who have wildly unrealistic expectations of where their club should stand in the pecking order.

If you look at net spend over the past five years, Newcastle have a net spend pretty much the same as Watford and much more than Southampton.

The idea that Benitez has been labouring on scraps is a myth. One he's happy to use as a fig leaf for his failure to take Newcastle to anything beyond bottom half obscurity.

I think you're being rather dismissive if I'm honest. However I appreciate not everyone is going to understand every football club and their city. For example, to them Keegan was a messiah. He took them from near relegation to the old division 3, to almost winning the premier league, and with playing exciting football, after decades of yo-yo wildnerness. And you cannot ridicule a fan base for that. We love Martin Jol because he brought us our Spurs back after a decade or more of turgid shite. Would you ridicule us for making a man who, on paper, only ever got us 5th, as a legend?

I'm in a unique position with Newcastle, as half my family are as about as Geordie as you can get, and I lived up there for most of my 20's. So I understand how the Club is the City and visa versa. I don't know anywhere else like it.

 

[Marty]

Don't get me wrong, Ashley is a pretty poor chairman, and a classless individual, but I think he has been scapegoated a little bit by a fanbase who have wildly unrealistic expectations of where their club should stand in the pecking order.

Just picking up on this specific point, I thought I'd see how they've done in the PL era pre- and post Ashley's takeover.

1992/3-2006/7:
Div 1 winner, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 13th, 13th, 11th, 11th, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 14th, 7th, 13th

Average position (Div 1 winner = 23rd): 8.67

2007/8-2018/19:
12th, 18th, Champ winner, 12th, 5th, 16th, 10th, 15th, 18th, Champ winner, 10th, 13th.

Average position (Champ winner = 21st): 14.25

Make of that what you will, but I'd say that's underperforming.

 

[Marty]

Also, the rate of Newcastle's top ten finishes has dropped from 8/15 (over half) pre-takeover to 3/12 (a quarter) since, and the rate of top five finishes has dropped from 6/15 to 1/12.

 

['O Zio]

The idea that Benitez has been labouring on scraps is a myth. One he's happy to use as a fig leaf for his failure to take Newcastle to anything beyond bottom half obscurity.

From that 5 year comparison you've posted, 112m of the net spend is from before Benitez was there so I'm not really sure how that's relevant. If you just look at the figures from while Benitez was actually there, they've basically broken even give or take.

So with no spend at all, he's got them promoted and then 2 mid-table finishes despite having what most people consider to be a Championship level squad

 

[King of Otters]

Just picking up on this specific point, I thought I'd see how they've done in the PL era pre- and post Ashley's takeover.

1992/3-2006/7:
Div 1 winner, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 13th, 13th, 11th, 11th, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 14th, 7th, 13th

Average position (Div 1 winner = 23rd): 8.67

2007/8-2018/19:
12th, 18th, Champ winner, 12th, 5th, 16th, 10th, 15th, 18th, Champ winner, 10th, 13th.

Average position (Champ winner = 21st): 14.25

Make of that what you will, but I'd say that's underperforming.

It's well known that Newcastle spent well beyond their means pre-Ashley. You could use similar data to make it seem like Peter Risdale was a good chairman for Leeds.

The comedown was in the post for a long time for Newcastle. What we see now is pretty much a return to normality after a brief flirtation with not quite success, which proved to be completely unsustainable financially.

 

[skiba]

Your point on resources doesn't really stand up to scrutiny to be honest. During Benitez's time with Newcastle, Bournemouth have actually spent more than they have. Newcastle have plenty of resources but Benitez doesn't actually seem to have access to them.

So Eddie Howe has done well with Bournemouth, but I'd say he's got a better squad, has spent more money, and doesn't have to put up with an unworkable situation behind the scenes with all the off-the-field politics. Whether or not youre a massive fan of Benitez, it's hard to really argue that he isn't the best manager they've had in ages and losing him is going to set them back massively.

Do they have the resources though? They were mismanaged badly under Shepherd and Ashley has had to put over £100m of his own money in the form of interest free loans just to keep the club afloat. They have suffered relegation twice in recent years, each time going down with a Premier League wage bill and made a loss of £90m in 2017.

Their turnover is miles behind the top 6 and is at a similar level to West Ham, Everton and Leicester. A budget of £60m plus player sales seems more than reasonable to me considering their financial position.

 

['O Zio]

Do they have the resources though? They were mismanaged badly under Shepherd and Ashley has had to put over £100m of his own money in the form of interest free loans just to keep the club afloat. They have suffered relegation twice in recent years, each time going down with a Premier League wage bill and made a loss of £90m in 2017.

Their turnover is miles behind the top 6 and is at a similar level to West Ham, Everton and Leicester. A budget of £60m plus player sales seems more than reasonable to me considering their financial position.

Yeah you're probably right. I was more thinking in terms of that they have a big stadium, big fanbase etc. etc. so in theory they have everything in place to be a successful club if they were run properly. As you say though, they've cocked things up massively over the years.

My point was more that Benitez hasn't had big money to spend in the way that the other poster was trying to suggest. In fact, he's spent less money than Howe, who the other poster was praising.

 

[Danners9]

Didn't share the same vision...




12m a year at Dalian Yifang.

Surprised the NUFC takeover hasn't gone through. Wonder if it would have made a difference.

 

[spursfan77]

Didn't share the same vision...




12m a year at Dalian Yifang.

Surprised the NUFC takeover hasn't gone through. Wonder if it would have made a difference.

They all look over the moon about it!

 

[TheChosenOne]

Not taking credit for it .. Someone else said 'Huawei the lads'