Club Finances - Swiss Ramble

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#42
Does anyone else reckon we might announce the stadium as virtually paid for or am i living in cloud cuckoo land? :joyful:
Going by the swiss ramble we've been ploughing most of our money into it, considering our income (TV, MatchReciepts, Commerical, PrizeMoney etc) hasn't been ploughed into purchasing playing staff for years (net0) if it's not near paid off something doesn't add up, our capex in just one year was 493m.
 
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#43
Going by the swiss ramble we've been ploughing most of our money into it, considering our income (TV, MatchReciepts, Commerical, PrizeMoney etc) hasn't been ploughed into purchasing playing staff for years (net0) if it's not near paid off something doesn't add up, our capex in just one year was 493m.
Yes I was under the impression ENIC have been ploughing money into property in the area surrouding the stadium, also.

(Rather than the team).
 
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#44
Going by the swiss ramble we've been ploughing most of our money into it, considering our income (TV, MatchReciepts, Commerical, PrizeMoney etc) hasn't been ploughed into purchasing playing staff for years (net0) if it's not near paid off something doesn't add up, our capex in just one year was 493m.
Serious questions would need to be asked if this is not the case. Where is the money then
 
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#46
Yes I was under the impression ENIC have been ploughing money into property in the area surrouding the stadium, also.

(Rather than the team).
Yeah, you're right. Technically speaking that was NDP Phase I, which was mainly buying up most of the surrounding property to facilitate Phase II. I believe Phase I also included Lily White house. For the most part that phase has been paid for. I also believe our new traning ground has been paid off as well which finished construction in 2012.
 
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#47
Yeah, you're right. Technically speaking that was NDP Phase I, which was mainly buying up most of the surrounding property to facilitate Phase II. I believe Phase I also included Lily White house. For the most part that phase has been paid for. I also believe our new traning ground has been paid off as well which finished construction in 2012.
the training ground finally finished this season with the players quarters? a residential block which I believe is for the players, might be for the youth or visitors I don't know
 
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#48
Does anyone else reckon we might announce the stadium as virtually paid for or am i living in cloud cuckoo land? :joyful:
Not a chance. A lot of the headline figure is no longer debt, because it was incurred many years ago, buying the land and getting planning consent.

Clearing the bulk of the construction debt will depend on the sales receipts from the Phase 3 - the housing and the hotel. They are intended to make a profit to reduce the residual debt for the overall project. But what that amounts to will depend on the state of the London housing market in a few years.
 
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#49
I don't know, but looking through the figures there is not mention of wages paid to all staff in the decade
Always an excuse hey Lighty, hope your getting paid... about a 3rd of our turnover was on wages 2018, if we end up saddled with debt then you have to ask where the many 100's of millions went from the last 10/20 years because it wasn't on players. I don't normally respond to your posts anymore as you have an answer (excuse) for everything so forgive me if I don't carry on this conversation. But really there should be no grey area anymore for the BSoDL, this summer we need to prioritize investing in playing staff, fancy that for a novel idea for a football club, I fully expect though this grey area to continue and the excuses will be at the ready come August, Europa for one, which had we prioritized playing staff a bit more perhaps couldn't have been an excuse, but hey ho...

Just to be clear I believe the Stadium has been mostly been paid for, logic as well as any figures we can gather says no other explanation where all our 100's of millions have gone, but I doubt this will be clarified and this grey area will serve as a purpose for future years of Austerity in getting the correct playing staff. In short this summer (especially with Europa looming) we're in for more disappointment, I guess it'll depend how many rabbits Levy can pull out on his self imposed net 0...
 
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#50
the training ground finally finished this season with the players quarters? a residential block which I believe is for the players, might be for the youth or visitors I don't know
Well not exactly. The club did build those quarters (the Lodge) as an addendum to the training ground as part of the grand scheme to make these facilities self sustaining, as in they pay for themselves (by hosting other teams, ex. Brazil past summer). The revenue generated by these facilities is not exactly intended to pay off the facility but I see it as providing the funds for the day to day operations. Still, though, the original planned construction was finished on time in 2012.

But it'd be interesting to see how much these additions have added to the overall debt. However, it should still be miniscule in comparison to Phase II, i.e. stadium.
 
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#51
Always an excuse hey Lighty, hope your getting paid... about a 3rd of our turnover was on wages 2018, if we end up saddled with debt then you have to ask where the many 100's of millions went from the last 10/20 years because it wasn't on players. I don't normally respond to your posts anymore as you have an answer (excuse) for everything so forgive me if I don't carry on this conversation. But really there should be no grey area anymore for the BSoDL, this summer we need to prioritize investing in playing staff, fancy that for a novel idea for a football club, I fully expect though this grey area to continue and the excuses will be at the ready come August, Europa for one, which had we prioritized playing staff a bit more perhaps couldn't have been an excuse, but hey ho...
if you look at the 1st part I said "I don't know", I then mentioned that wages weren't included in those figures. if you point me to what was paid in wages over that 10 years, and that we had the large amount over, then it will then make me see that part clearer.

all I know is we built sainsbury's, lilywhite house, the training ground, a stadium, all of which we had to purchase land for and pay companies off, and to house holders to be moved on, the big yard for storing the building equipment/supplies and I'm sure I've missed stuff. we had the problems with Archway steel which meant court fees.
 

jeremystorey

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#52
Not a chance. A lot of the headline figure is no longer debt, because it was incurred many years ago, buying the land and getting planning consent.

Clearing the bulk of the construction debt will depend on the sales receipts from the Phase 3 - the housing and the hotel. They are intended to make a profit to reduce the residual debt for the overall project. But what that amounts to will depend on the state of the London housing market in a few years.
Very interesting. How do you think that strategy potentially impacts player recruitment and budget therein?
 
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#53
Always an excuse hey Lighty, hope your getting paid... about a 3rd of our turnover was on wages 2018, if we end up saddled with debt then you have to ask where the many 100's of millions went from the last 10/20 years because it wasn't on players. I don't normally respond to your posts anymore as you have an answer (excuse) for everything so forgive me if I don't carry on this conversation. But really there should be no grey area anymore for the BSoDL, this summer we need to prioritize investing in playing staff, fancy that for a novel idea for a football club, I fully expect though this grey area to continue and the excuses will be at the ready come August, Europa for one, which had we prioritized playing staff a bit more perhaps couldn't have been an excuse, but hey ho...

Just to be clear I believe the Stadium has been mostly been paid for, logic as well as any figures we can gather says no other explanation where all our 100's of millions have gone, but I doubt this will be clarified and this grey area will serve as a purpose for future years of Austerity in getting the correct playing staff. In short this summer (especially with Europa looming) we're in for more disappointment, I guess it'll depend how many rabbits Levy can pull out on his self imposed net 0...
You're a ray of sunshine aren't you.
 
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#54
You're a ray of sunshine aren't you.
One of many that won’t be happy till ENIC are gone, and don’t realise what good they have done for the club. Doubt we would have our new training facilities or new stadium if it had been someone else buy Sugar out. Also don’t realise in the old stadium we would of never been able to compete with the big boys even if it might take 5-10 years to do it, now we are going into the new
 
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#55
Going by the swiss ramble we've been ploughing most of our money into it, considering our income (TV, MatchReciepts, Commerical, PrizeMoney etc) hasn't been ploughed into purchasing playing staff for years (net0) if it's not near paid off something doesn't add up, our capex in just one year was 493m.
The figure of £493 on our CAPEX is from 2008-2017 mate.
 

SirNiNyHotspur

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#56
The figure of £493 on our CAPEX is from 2008-2017 mate.
Good catch, as it was more than our yearly turnover I was assuming that was an accumulated amount injected as the Stadium build proper began, in any case we're a club has turnover 100's of millions each year, not sure low much lower our turnover was between 2000 and 2008 but since 2017 the turnover was 305m, not sure on figures from 2018, suspect closer to 400m, 2019 I suspect new records again, with around 1/3 on wages, non on player purchases, I would expect large chunks going on CAPEX and with that you have to assume we have the bulk of stadium already covered.
 
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#57
Good catch, as it was more than our yearly turnover I was assuming that was an accumulated amount injected as the Stadium build proper began, in any case we're a club has turnover 100's of millions each year, not sure low much lower our turnover was between 2000 and 2008 but since 2017 the turnover was 305m, not sure on figures from 2018, suspect closer to 400m, 2019 I suspect new records again, with around 1/3 on wages, non on player purchases, I would expect large chunks going on CAPEX and with that you have to assume we have the bulk of stadium already covered.
In 2017 we had roughly £448m of loans we took out, due to be repaid by 2022. That's not including interest we need to pay so we still have a fair old way to go to get ourselves back in the black.

If it's taken 10 years to invest £493m, I can see it takening another 5-10 years to pay everything else off based on us probably needing to invest in the playing squad, pay more competitive wages etc.

When people moan about no trophy and why we focus on the top 4 more it's because the Champions League can generate up to £100m extra in bonus payments from UEFA. The FA Cup has a maximum of c£6m for the winner. This pay off period is so important for the club, hence why our priorities are the correct ones for this moment in time even if they do get mocked
 

SirNiNyHotspur

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#58
In 2017 we had roughly £448m of loans we took out, due to be repaid by 2022. That's not including interest we need to pay so we still have a fair old way to go to get ourselves back in the black.

If it's taken 10 years to invest £493m, I can see it takening another 5-10 years to pay everything else off based on us probably needing to invest in the playing squad, pay more competitive wages etc.

When people moan about no trophy and why we focus on the top 4 more it's because the Champions League can generate up to £100m extra in bonus payments from UEFA. The FA Cup has a maximum of c£6m for the winner. This pay off period is so important for the club, hence why our priorities are the correct ones for this moment in time even if they do get mocked
It will interesting seeing the figures from 2019-2020 after stadium build completed and a season in new Stadium. I remember reading something official from club in 2018 our loan debt was 366m, so assume that’s 80m further invested in stadium in the 1 year just from loan perspective assuming your 2017 figures are correct, will post if i can find link. If add in another 100 up to 2019 would expect with ever increasing income 2-3 years and we’ll completely in clear but i’m just filling in blanks from limited information.

Actually that ties in with your 2022 due date.
 
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davidmatzdorf

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#59
People are still forgetting that we’re only 2 phases through a 3 phase project. There still remain capital costs for 500+ units of housing and a hotel to be borrowed and invested.

It would not surprise me if THFC partners up with an experienced residential developer and a hotel operator, with the partners responsible for cash flowing phase 3. That would keep the debt off the club’s books, but they’d have to share a substantial percentage of the profit with their partners.
 

vegassd

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#60
People are still forgetting that we’re only 2 phases through a 3 phase project. There still remain capital costs for 500+ units of housing and a hotel to be borrowed and invested.

It would not surprise me if THFC partners up with an experienced residential developer and a hotel operator, with the partners responsible for cash flowing phase 3. That would keep the debt off the club’s books, but they’d have to share a substantial percentage of the profit with their partners.
I suppose it would make sense to partner up with companies already involved with the Tavistock Group - at least from Lewis' perspective. It appears that they have bags of experience in that world so I would hope they can sort that final phase with the least amount of disruption to club finances and the fan experience on match days.
 
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