Changes to champions league and super champions league.

[Lilbaz]

https://www.goal.com/en/news/explai...is-changing-2024-25/c85supj4n6wd1wek05l3fnw73

Thoughts?

 

[Lilbaz]

My thoughts are that it is a terrible idea. Especially that some teams will be permanently in it withought having to qualify. If they want the games to be more meaningful make it like the fa cup format. One game knockout. Fa cup had 736 teams involved this season. That would cover all the top teams in europe and a few from the smaller leagues.

If the bigger teams want to play each other more often then have two groups of 8. Winner plays each other for the title bottom 2 from each get relegated. Under them have 4 groups of 8 winner from each gets promoted. Can have another division below them and so on. Keep the games mid week too.

 

[knilly]

It’s to keep the established on top. Any team can win a one off tie, even a home and away leg.

Putting group stages in means the ones with the bigger pockets rise to the top. More chance of qualifying from 6 group games or even 14 group games.

The elite of 15 years ago ie Man Utd and Arsenal have been left behind, as have Chelsea.

The established clubs don’t want anyone else sitting at the top table in their places

 

[Marty]

Worth noting that all Premier League clubs and the PL organisation as a whole have spoken out against this.

I don't think this will happen.

 

[LDNYid]

One of the joys of European football is the fact that clubs with fewer resources often cause upsets and can have glory glory nights ala Ajax and Spurs this season. I would be totally opposed to a further strengthening of richer clubs to the detriment of football; that’s with the knowledge that Spurs are likely to be potentially as powerful as most within the next decade.

 

[Lilbaz]

Worth noting that all Premier League clubs and the PL organisation as a whole have spoken out against this.

I don't think this will happen.

This may not but there will most likely be changes in 2024. These are the changes the aca (or at least one or two of it's members) have proposed.

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

https://www.goal.com/en/news/explai...is-changing-2024-25/c85supj4n6wd1wek05l3fnw73

Thoughts?

Nothing story imo

 

[Marty]

This may not but there will most likely be changes in 2024. These are the changes the aca (or at least one or two of it's members) have proposed.

I've read that Juventus are the club that is pushing hardest for this, which might not be a surprise given the state of Serie A in the last decade.

There might be changes, but the PL and all PL clubs, the top six included, are very much against playing more group games in European competition.

 

[Lilbaz]

Nothing story imo

Hopefully.

 

[Lilbaz]

I've read that Juventus are the club that is pushing hardest for this, which might not be a surprise given the state of Serie A in the last decade.

There might be changes, but the PL and all PL clubs, the top six included, are very much against playing more group games in European competition.

With the way the tv deal in spain works now, barca and real wont see much growth from tv rights for the forseeable future. So are pushing for more from europe. Not sure how the other teams feel. They will probably deny it. Any mention of a cartel is not good for them. But there are talks and they will want something they always do.

 

[Saoirse]

My thoughts are that it is a terrible idea. Especially that some teams will be permanently in it withought having to qualify. If they want the games to be more meaningful make it like the fa cup format. One game knockout. Fa cup had 736 teams involved this season. That would cover all the top teams in europe and a few from the smaller leagues.

If the bigger teams want to play each other more often then have two groups of 8. Winner plays each other for the title bottom 2 from each get relegated. Under them have 4 groups of 8 winner from each gets promoted. Can have another division below them and so on. Keep the games mid week too.

I don't think the FA Cup idea would work. Obviously not a perfect source, but looking at the top 736 European teams from Football Manager, you'd be looking at including League One sides, Irish teams, second-tier Scottish clubs etc. I don't think there's anything particularly compelling about "How many goals will Gillingham lose to Juventus by" or "Can Dunfermline beat Jönköpings Södra IF (not made up, I swear) to get through to the next round when they'll never win the tournament". And if you copied the FA Cup and had the big teams coming in late, there'd be far fewer matches than now which is obviously the opposite of what's being looked for.

Promotion and relegation is something I think we might actually end up with though. Obviously the proposal they're talking about now won't happen, it's just the same as they did last time going in with something extreme to make the actual plan seem moderate. Instead of qualifying through the league, the 8 teams who finish bottom of their CL groups are relegated, and replaced the next season by the quarter-finalists from the Europa League. So for next season Monaco, PSV, Red Star, Lokomotiv Moscow, AEK Athens, Hoffenheim, CSKA Moscow and Young Boys would be replaced by Arsenal, Napoli, Villarreal, Valencia, Benfica, Frankfurt, Slavia Prague and Chelsea. Suddenly Spain and England have six teams each in the CL, and UEFA are probably very happy at that. Then do the same between the Europa and the new "Europa League 2" we're getting in 2021 anyway, and have the worst UEL2 teams replaced by the winners of a qualifying tournament featuring the best-placed club from each domestic league not yet competing in Europe.

At a push, you could also replace the eight groups of four with four groups of eight to increase the group stage from 6 games per club up to 14. Then you could scrap the last 16 and go straight to the QFs, meaning you could use the four slots the last 16 has at the moment for the group stage as well as the two playoff slots before the current GS you wouldn't need any more. Then you'd only need to fit in two more games somewhere which should be possible. I'd say they'll probably save that for the next cycle round though rather than push their luck straight away.

 

[Lilbaz]

I don't think the FA Cup idea would work. Obviously not a perfect source, but looking at the top 736 European teams from Football Manager, you'd be looking at including League One sides, Irish teams, second-tier Scottish clubs etc. I don't think there's anything particularly compelling about "How many goals will Gillingham lose to Juventus by" or "Can Dunfermline beat Jönköpings Södra IF (not made up, I swear) to get through to the next round when they'll never win the tournament". And if you copied the FA Cup and had the big teams coming in late, there'd be far fewer matches than now which is obviously the opposite of what's being looked for.

Promotion and relegation is something I think we might actually end up with though. Obviously the proposal they're talking about now won't happen, it's just the same as they did last time going in with something extreme to make the actual plan seem moderate. Instead of qualifying through the league, the 8 teams who finish bottom of their CL groups are relegated, and replaced the next season by the quarter-finalists from the Europa League. So for next season Monaco, PSV, Red Star, Lokomotiv Moscow, AEK Athens, Hoffenheim, CSKA Moscow and Young Boys would be replaced by Arsenal, Napoli, Villarreal, Valencia, Benfica, Frankfurt, Slavia Prague and Chelsea. Suddenly Spain and England have six teams each in the CL, and UEFA are probably very happy at that. Then do the same between the Europa and the new "Europa League 2" we're getting in 2021 anyway, and have the worst UEL2 teams replaced by the winners of a qualifying tournament featuring the best-placed club from each domestic league not yet competing in Europe.

At a push, you could also replace the eight groups of four with four groups of eight to increase the group stage from 6 games per club up to 14. Then you could scrap the last 16 and go straight to the QFs, meaning you could use the four slots the last 16 has at the moment for the group stage as well as the two playoff slots before the current GS you wouldn't need any more. Then you'd only need to fit in two more games somewhere which should be possible. I'd say they'll probably save that for the next cycle round though rather than push their luck straight away.

I know nobody would go for it but it would be a way of lessening inequality in the game which the cl has created. Which is needed if football is to survive the next 50 years. Juve, byern, etc... want a superleague because they have 'outgrown' their domestic leagues what happens when real or barca outgrow the new competition and everyone else are just making up the numbers?

 

[Saoirse]

I know nobody would go for it but it would be a way of lessening inequality in the game which the cl has created. Which is needed if football is to survive the next 50 years. Juve, byern, etc... want a superleague because they have 'outgrown' their domestic leagues what happens when real or barca outgrow the new competition and everyone else are just making up the numbers?

I think they'll be roughly trying to copy the Premier League model which has worked so well for the clubs involved. Huge inequality between the clubs in the CL and the clubs who aren't, but relative equality between the CL teams to keep it competitive and a perfectly realistic route to join it rather than a closed shop. That way you hopefully avoid Real/Barca winning every year, and the teams outside will also be pushing their budgets and playing exciting games to try and get in - it would massively boost viewing figures and interest for early Europa League knockouts I bet.

 

[Lilbaz]

I think they'll be roughly trying to copy the Premier League model which has worked so well for the clubs involved. Huge inequality between the clubs in the CL and the clubs who aren't, but relative equality between the CL teams to keep it competitive and a perfectly realistic route to join it rather than a closed shop. That way you hopefully avoid Real/Barca winning every year, and the teams outside will also be pushing their budgets and playing exciting games to try and get in - it would massively boost viewing figures and interest for early Europa League knockouts I bet.

They are trying that in la liga. Needed a royal decree to get it to happen. Even so it will take years for there to be the parity there is in the pl. So real and barca decide they want to join a super league to get more money.
They will always want more and they will point to the fact they are the most supported clubs in the world and say they deserve more. The superleague real wanted almost 30% ownership.

With no relegation what happens to arsenal if they lose their first couple of games? Nothing to play for even a relegation scrap. The fans will stop watching or even worse start supporting a team that has a chance of winning. The big get bigger until there is only one or two giant teams.

 

[Saoirse]

They are trying that in la liga. Needed a royal decree to get it to happen. Even so it will take years for there to be the parity there is in the pl. So real and barca decide they want to join a super league to get more money.
They will always want more and they will point to the fact they are the most supported clubs in the world and say they deserve more. The superleague real wanted almost 30% ownership.

With no relegation what happens to arsenal if they lose their first couple of games? Nothing to play for even a relegation scrap. The fans will stop watching or even worse start supporting a team that has a chance of winning. The big get bigger until there is only one or two giant teams.

I think there will be relegation. It'll nearly never effect the big teams anyway. Arsenal finished 1st or 2nd for 15 years in a row or something stupid - very little chance of them finishing bottom, let alone the true giants like Real. But does keep the interest going just in case if they have a truly terrible first half of the group stage.

 

[rez9000]

Nothing story imo

Indeed a nothing article. It’s conflating two issues into one: the change to the CL format and the revelations in Der Spiegel about the elite clubs holding secret talks about splitting off to form their own closed-shop league.

On the former, there has been significant opposition already from the PL and the French League and I expect other leagues will voice similar reservations.

On the Super League, this doesn’t relate to UEFA, because the talks were deliberately held without UEFA involvement. Therefore, it doesn't relate to the Champions League.

Nothing story and also shows the dearth of quality in some of these articles. The use of language is atrocious. Sorry in advance for the following grammar Nazism, but it's pushed a button. For those who don't hate shit writing, feel free to skip.

These articles are sewage. It's just pumping out content to garner clicks and the GCSE-essay-level writing screams out in almost every line:

For example:

“The Champions League as we know it”? As opposed to the Champions League as we don’t know it?

“The competition... has built its reputation as a tournament where the most established of clubs play”. Its reputation as a tournament? As opposed to its reputation as a small golfing umbrella, yes? And the "most established" of clubs? So that's why Notts County, established in 1862, play in it every year, yes? The presence of specific clubs doesn't relate to the tournament's reputation. It is the format of the competition that determines who plays in it, not any putative 'reputation'.

“the race to finish in a Champions League-qualifying spot is the framework of the top leagues across the continent.” No, CL competitors are chosen to participate and from all the European leagues affiliated with UEFA, not the "top" leagues; and the race to finish in the qualifying spots is an objective of teams, not the framework for the leagues. UEFA invite clubs to participate in the CL based on their league positions. The decision is made by UEFA, not the domestic leagues, so it has no bearing on the 'framework' of those leagues.

“According to reports in Italy, ideas to introduce promotion and relegation to Europe's most elite tournament could be on the table,”. If the ideas have been posited, they are already on the table. The word that the writer seems blissfully ignorant of is ‘proposals’. And proposals for promotion and relegation to the tournament would be 'tabled' not 'on the table’.

“A top-four domestic finish in the Premier League wouldn't automatically guarantee for the competition.” “wouldn’t automatically guarantee for”? I’m sorry, guarantee for what? If you're going to use the word 'guarantee' as a verb, use it properly. "A top-four finish wouldn't automatically guarantee a place in the competition", for instance.

"The proposed changes... has already garnered opposition..." The writer can't even get his / her subject-verb agreement right.

“A statement... via the BBC, iterated...”. No, the statement was issued by the Premier League's media arm to all media outlets; it was not issued via the BBC. Issuing a statement via someone means the statement is given only to one organisation for them to exclusively distribute. The statement from the PL was issued by the PL and distributed to all media outlets.

To iterate means to repeat something. The writer (and I really am using the term advisedly here) thinks that with "reiterate" meaning to repeat, "iterate" means to say for the first time. However, "iterate" actually means to repeat something (for instance, I've just iterated what I said at the beginning of this paragraph) and "reiterate" means to repeat it a second time (or more). An example of the all-too ubiquitous use of long words to try and convey expertise, but without knowing what the words actually mean. And what's wrong with the word, 'stated', or even 'said'?

"The French Football League (FFL) has followed in the footsteps of the Premier League, and have expressed the 'deepest concern' about the future of the Champions League and its potential restructure." Again, subject-verb agreement failure, this time in the same clause!

Rant over.

 

[Lilbaz]

I think there will be relegation. It'll nearly never effect the big teams anyway. Arsenal finished 1st or 2nd for 15 years in a row or something stupid - very little chance of them finishing bottom, let alone the true giants like Real. But does keep the interest going just in case if they have a truly terrible first half of the group stage.

It will be the 16 best teams in europe they are competing against. All with similar financial resources.

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

Indeed a nothing article. It’s conflating two issues into one: the change to the CL format and the revelations in Der Spiegel about the elite clubs holding secret talks about splitting off to form their own closed-shop league.

On the former, there has been significant opposition already from the PL and the French League and I expect other leagues will voice similar reservations.

On the Super League, this doesn’t relate to UEFA, because the talks were deliberately held without UEFA involvement. Therefore, it doesn't relate to the Champions League.

Nothing story and also shows the dearth of quality in some of these articles. The use of language is atrocious. Sorry in advance for the following grammar Nazism, but it's pushed a button. For those who don't hate shit writing, feel free to skip.

These articles are sewage. It's just pumping out content to garner clicks and the GCSE-essay-level writing screams out in almost every line:

For example:

“The Champions League as we know it”? As opposed to the Champions League as we don’t know it?

“The competition... has built its reputation as a tournament where the most established of clubs play”. Its reputation as a tournament? As opposed to its reputation as a small golfing umbrella, yes? And the "most established" of clubs? So that's why Notts County, established in 1862, play in it every year, yes? The presence of specific clubs doesn't relate to the tournament's reputation. It is the format of the competition that determines who plays in it, not any putative 'reputation'.

“the race to finish in a Champions League-qualifying spot is the framework of the top leagues across the continent.” No, CL competitors are chosen to participate and from all the European leagues affiliated with UEFA, not the "top" leagues; and the race to finish in the qualifying spots is an objective of teams, not the framework for the leagues. UEFA invite clubs to participate in the CL based on their league positions. The decision is made by UEFA, not the domestic leagues, so it has no bearing on the 'framework' of those leagues.

“According to reports in Italy, ideas to introduce promotion and relegation to Europe's most elite tournament could be on the table,”. If the ideas have been posited, they are already on the table. The word that the writer seems blissfully ignorant of is ‘proposals’. And proposals for promotion and relegation to the tournament would be 'tabled' not 'on the table’.

“A top-four domestic finish in the Premier League wouldn't automatically guarantee for the competition.” “wouldn’t automatically guarantee for”? I’m sorry, guarantee for what? If you're going to use the word 'guarantee' as a verb, use it properly. "A top-four finish wouldn't automatically guarantee a place in the competition", for instance.

"The proposed changes... has already garnered opposition..." The writer can't even get his / her subject-verb agreement right.

“A statement... via the BBC, iterated...”. No, the statement was issued by the Premier League's media arm to all media outlets; it was not issued via the BBC. Issuing a statement via someone means the statement is given only to one organisation for them to exclusively distribute. The statement from the PL was issued by the PL and distributed to all media outlets.

To iterate means to repeat something. The writer (and I really am using the term advisedly here) thinks that with "reiterate" meaning to repeat, "iterate" means to say for the first time. However, "iterate" actually means to repeat something (for instance, I've just iterated what I said at the beginning of this paragraph) and "reiterate" means to repeat it a second time (or more). An example of the all-too ubiquitous use of long words to try and convey expertise, but without knowing what the words actually mean. And what's wrong with the word, 'stated', or even 'said'?

"The French Football League (FFL) has followed in the footsteps of the Premier League, and have expressed the 'deepest concern' about the future of the Champions League and its potential restructure." Again, subject-verb agreement failure, this time in the same clause!

Rant over.

Exactly, too many according to sources and supposition. For it to be anything other than click-bait. Lazy journalism, with shock headlines for clicks and as revenue. It is a bane of our modern times

 

[Lilbaz]

Ok not happy with that article:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...osals-could-see-introduction-weekend-matches/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe...dical-changes-to-champions-league-11552834959

 

[Lilbaz]

They wouldn't be holding meetings if there was no interest.