Champions League 2017-18

[Deleted member 27855]

Yeah but they've had the luck they needed at the right moments. You can't win it three times in a row without a significant amount of luck. Much better teams have failed to hold the trophy because they didn't get the lucky breaks when they needed them.



I'm saying I don't think they're good enough (mentally or otherwise) to win the trophy three years in a row. So if that happens I'll put it down to an inordinate amount of luck in allowing it to happen.

Real have had the best team in the world over the past 5 years. It's going to go down as one of the best teams of all time. No luck involved. You can hate them all you want, I certainly do, but nothing is going to change the fact that they are indisputably great.

 

[Mr Pink]

@shelfboy68 is right though. They have improved and are a long way ahead of spurs in terms of attacking ability speed of thought and perhaps most importantly, mentality. Salah is exceptional and the players around him aren't too shabby either. I hate it but it's there to see.

They're not a long way ahead, just like the league table indicates and furthermore how are two league meetings played out against them, where we definitely were the better side overall.

They have an exceptional talent in Salah who has transformed their attack and taken them to a new level but overall their isn't much in it.

We've just lost our way at the business end a touch, where they've kept it going.

We've been playing at Wembley all season, which is bound to take its toll not to mention a far harder route in the CL, again maybe explaining us running out of the steam a bit more.

We've had a shit week, they've had a great one and now there's this massive gulf?

Nah, that's just good old bollox right there.

 

[MyNameIsNicolaBerti]

They're not a long way ahead, just like the league table indicates and furthermore how are two league meetings played out against them, where we definitely were the better side overall.

They have an exceptional talent in Salah who has transformed their attack and taken them to a new level but overall their isn't much in it.

We've just lost our way at the business end a touch, where they've kept it going.

We've been playing at Wembley all season, which is bound to take its toll not to mention a far harder route in the CL, again maybe explaining us running out of the steam a bit more.

We've had a shit week, they've had a great one and now there's this massive gulf?

Nah, that's just good old bollox right there.

They are heavily reliant on Salah. I've not saying they are a one man team but he has allowed them to push on massively. He's not a player with loyalty and if he keeps this form up he'll be there one more season max. I do not see them as a threat, even if they win the CL.

 

[thebenjamin]

So we've got 2 wins and 2 draws this season against the CL finalists. Shows how close we are.

 

[DCSPUR]

Madrid's record is fantastic....puts our games in perspective despite some revisionist history by, sadly, our fans

 

[ItsBoris]

Dude you can't be lucky winning a competition 3 years in a row, that's just absurd. I get that you need some luck to navigate yourself past rounds but putting that down to luck is silly.

You're contradicting yourself. Any team that wins it needs some luck on their side. Any team that wins it twice in a row needs a lot of luck on their side. Real Madrid have had the combination of luck and quality that they've needed, that's true and I'm not disputing that they're a good team. But in a parallel universe with the exact same teams and players, it could have been Barcelona, or Man City, or Bayern, or Juve, or PSG, or A. Madrid, or even some other team who, with things happening to go in their favor to the same extent, could have done the same thing. I don't take R. Madrid's record as a sign of unassailable quality, but rather as a very good team who have happened to have the rub of the green the last few years.

 

[jurgen]

True luck is the draws Liverpool have been gifted throughout. Assuming Real get to the final they’ve knocked out some serious heavyweights to be there whatever the performances were. Pool haven’t played a serious big European player at all yet.. having said that, a lack of familiarity could really help them.

 

[fortworthspur]

I dont think Liverpool are ahead of us - I think they have a very potent attack that troubles some sides. and this may just be their year in CL - lightning in a bottle. we actually did okay against them.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't think this Real/Bayern tie is over. I could easily see Bayern getting a result in Madrid.

 

[Shadydan]

You're contradicting yourself. Any team that wins it needs some luck on their side. Any team that wins it twice in a row needs a lot of luck on their side. Real Madrid have had the combination of luck and quality that they've needed, that's true and I'm not disputing that they're a good team. But in a parallel universe with the exact same teams and players, it could have been Barcelona, or Man City, or Bayern, or Juve, or PSG, or A. Madrid, or even some other team who, with things happening to go in their favor to the same extent, could have done the same thing. I don't take R. Madrid's record as a sign of unassailable quality, but rather as a very good team who have happened to have the rub of the green the last few years.

Haha Contradiction, not quite fella...I said you need some luck to navigate yourself to the latter rounds not luck to win the thing 3 times in a row lol ffs

Are you drunk?, your reasoning is actually hilarious

 

[ItsBoris]

Haha Contradiction, not quite fella...I said you need some luck to navigate yourself to the latter rounds not luck to win the thing 3 times in a row lol ffs

Are you drunk?, your reasoning is actually hilarious

Probably pointless to keep discussing this as I don't think we're going to end up agreeing, but curious how you think my reasoning is flawed?

To me your reasoning seems pretty flawed. If you need luck to get to the later rounds, then logic suggests that you need more luck to win it 3 times in a row. How is that wrong?

 

[ohtottenham!]

Probably pointless to keep discussing this as I don't think we're going to end up agreeing, but curious how you think my reasoning is flawed?

To me your reasoning seems pretty flawed. If you need luck to get to the later rounds, then logic suggests that you need more luck to win it 3 times in a row. How is that wrong?

I think it’s a case of Real having a team of elite players who’ve won everything they can as a team. It’s hard for a team to maintain motivation and peak performances consistently in the long term over all comps.

They’ve raised their game consistently in the knockout stages of the CL the last few years. A totally different animal from the RM side in the group stages, or even in La Liga, a team which does just enough to qualify for the CL KO stages.

Luck in the CL? I don’t think so. Not when they win the trophy consistently like they’re swiping candy!

They’re clinical in this competition, where other teams aren’t, and if they go behind at any point in a key game in the CL, they find a way back – it really was no surprise that Marcelo evened the score just before HT.

If Bayern had put away one of their chances in the second half, there’s a good chance that Real would have replied anyway, ‘cause that’s what they do. They raise their game when they need to.

I can’t predict the outcome of this year’s comp, but if ‘Pool, Roma or Bayern win it, hats off to them. I really don’t see Bayern coming back from this in Madrid, because there’s too much talent, experience and motivation in that RM team.

It’s also a RM team with key players who’ve been together a while, and when they’re motivated, they tend to find a way to win.

 

[TheHoddleWaddle]

They're not a long way ahead, just like the league table indicates and furthermore how are two league meetings played out against them, where we definitely were the better side overall.

They have an exceptional talent in Salah who has transformed their attack and taken them to a new level but overall their isn't much in it.

We've just lost our way at the business end a touch, where they've kept it going.

We've been playing at Wembley all season, which is bound to take its toll not to mention a far harder route in the CL, again maybe explaining us running out of the steam a bit more.

We've had a shit week, they've had a great one and now there's this massive gulf?

Nah, that's just good old bollox right there.

In the 3 areas I mentioned I think they are ahead. Our own players have agreed There s an issue in the more important matches that they have to find a way to improve. So no, I don't think it's bollocks.

I have been an advocate for spurs this season and happen to think we have had a good season. Considering squad depth, injuries and Wembley etc. But I do believe Liverpool have taken an extra step up the quality ladder.

If they play like they did vs Roma the final will be a great game to watch for the neutral. (Assuming they get there).

 

[ohtottenham!]

I don't think this Real/Bayern tie is over. I could easily see Bayern getting a result in Madrid.

...and probably not a good result. Football can surprise, but I'd be shocked! Bayern will get their chances in Madrid, but so will Ronaldo et al at home. Bayern will have to get two goals at least and limit RM from scoring at least one in the Bernabeu. I Just don't see that happening with a RM team that are motivated to win the CL.

 

[tiger666]

Probably pointless to keep discussing this as I don't think we're going to end up agreeing, but curious how you think my reasoning is flawed?

To me your reasoning seems pretty flawed. If you need luck to get to the later rounds, then logic suggests that you need more luck to win it 3 times in a row. How is that wrong?

So the Brazil sides that won the World Cup in 58, 62 and 70, the Ajax side that dominated Europe in the 70's were really lucky? Bizarre reasoning.

 

[Shadydan]

Probably pointless to keep discussing this as I don't think we're going to end up agreeing, but curious how you think my reasoning is flawed?

To me your reasoning seems pretty flawed. If you need luck to get to the later rounds, then logic suggests that you need more luck to win it 3 times in a row. How is that wrong?

Yeah I said some luck - It's a cup comp so luck will ultimately play it's part (luck of the draw, pens, opponents being off form) etc...but ultimately you still need the mentality, skill and the experience to win and they have that more than other teams.

You can't say that Real have been lucky 3x times in a row because what you're saying is that anyone can win a trophy if they get lucky and you're totally dismissing what it actually takes to win a tournament. If Real have been so lucky how comes no-one else has has this amount of luck previously in the past? I don't understand your comment when you say in a parallel universe if the aforementioned teams had the rub of the green they'd have the same success as Real...so what you're saying is that anyone who wins the comp 3 times in a row is ultimately lucky?

IMO What it boils down to with Real is something you can't really quantify is that they have CL experience, they have this knack of getting through matches against teams that aren't as seasoned as them, they have this ruthless mentality which allows them to strike as soon as their opponents drop their guard, it's almost like they can sense when their opponents aren't on it...now if that happened once or twice in the same season then then you could probably have an argument but they've constantly done this which means it's a pattern and they are designed to be winners.

 

[coys200]

Spurs will be the only team to have beaten both likely CL finalists this season on aggregate.
Liverpool 6-3
Madrid 4-2

Justsaying ?

 

[ItsBoris]

I think it’s a case of Real having a team of elite players who’ve won everything they can as a team. It’s hard for a team to maintain motivation and peak performances consistently in the long term over all comps.

They’ve raised their game consistently in the knockout stages of the CL the last few years. A totally different animal from the RM side in the group stages, or even in La Liga, a team which does just enough to qualify for the CL KO stages.

Luck in the CL? I don’t think so. Not when they win the trophy consistently like they’re swiping candy!

They’re clinical in this competition, where other teams aren’t, and if they go behind at any point in a key game in the CL, they find a way back – it really was no surprise that Marcelo evened the score just before HT.

If Bayern had put away one of their chances in the second half, there’s a good chance that Real would have replied anyway, ‘cause that’s what they do. They raise their game when they need to.

I can’t predict the outcome of this year’s comp, but if ‘Pool, Roma or Bayern win it, hats off to them. I really don’t see Bayern coming back from this in Madrid, because there’s too much talent, experience and motivation in that RM team.

It’s also a RM team with key players who’ve been together a while, and when they’re motivated, they tend to find a way to win.

Well let's look at the last two CLs they won. In 2015-16 they had a pretty easy draw and avoided the better teams, so wasn't too surprising that they won that. Last season in their match against Bayern at home they were losing and the ref sent off Vidal controversially and Ronaldo was awarded an offside goal in extra time. So that's either pure luck or being helped out by the ref unjustly. Either way, they weren't showing the strong mentality you were talking about - they were losing at home and the momentum was in Bayern's favor before the referee changed things.

This season they were losing at home 0-3 to Juve and on the verge of extra time when they got awarded a lucky penalty in the last minute of the game. They were lucky to win against Bayern this season as well imo, who uncharacteristically missed almost all of their chances and then had a defender pass the ball straight to Asensio. Those are just the instances I can think of off the top of my head and there are probably other examples that I can't think of at the moment.

In any case I think it's clear that they've had a lot of fortune that doesn't have much to do with their "strong mentality". That kind of language is often used in hindsight to explain occurrences that would seem unlikely, such as Madrid winning it twice in a row. Their "strong mentality" obviously helped them navigate through the competition in difficult moments. But is that really true upon examining it? Maybe in some instances, but as I've pointed out, there are other instances where their "mentality" was actually failing and they relied on good fortune to get through. You're probably right that their players have a strong belief in themselves and their abilities (winning breeds confidence), but I still maintain that other teams have that as well and with the same amount of good fortune could have replicated the same feat.

 

[Shadydan]

Well let's look at the last two CLs they won. In 2015-16 they had a pretty easy draw and avoided the better teams, so wasn't too surprising that they won that. Last season in their match against Bayern at home they were losing and the ref sent off Vidal controversially and Ronaldo was awarded an offside goal in extra time. So that's either pure luck or being helped out by the ref unjustly. Either way, they weren't showing the strong mentality you were talking about - they were losing at home and the momentum was in Bayern's favor before the referee changed things.

This season they were losing at home 0-3 to Juve and on the verge of extra time when they got awarded a lucky penalty in the last minute of the game. They were lucky to win against Bayern this season as well imo, who uncharacteristically missed almost all of their chances and then had a defender pass the ball straight to Asensio. Those are just the instances I can think of off the top of my head and there are probably other examples that I can't think of at the moment.

In any case I think it's clear that they've had a lot of fortune that doesn't have much to do with their "strong mentality". That kind of language is often used in hindsight to explain occurrences that would seem unlikely, such as Madrid winning it twice in a row. Their "strong mentality" obviously helped them navigate through the competition in difficult moments. But is that really true upon examining it? Maybe in some instances, but as I've pointed out, there are other instances where their "mentality" was actually failing and they relied on good fortune to get through. You're probably right that their players have a strong belief in themselves and their abilities (winning breeds confidence), but I still maintain that other teams have that as well and with the same amount of good fortune could have replicated the same feat.

This season again you forget that they were put in arguably the hardest group on paper and out of the four teams left they've had the most difficult run to get to the final, swings and roundabouts. They didn't concede a lucky penalty against Juve, it was a penalty no arguments and they deserved to go through.

In regards to the Bayern match well this is the point isn't it?...against Bayern the majority of other teams would have caved in and probably lost 2/3-0, Real took their chances when they were presented to them (you also conveniently forget that Bayern's goal came from a Marcelo and Navas error), that's normally the difference at top level and what separates good and great teams.

There are probably more examples of favorable events but the eyes see what they want to see, I bet I can find equally as many examples of them being unlucky in situations and matches...we can be here all day pointing at moments in matches but at the end of the day the end result is that they've come out victors more often than not, says a lot more about them than your 'lucky' narrative.

 

[ItsBoris]

This season again you forget that they were put in arguably the hardest group on paper and out of the four teams left they've had the most difficult run to get to the final, swings and roundabouts. They didn't concede a lucky penalty against Juve, it was a penalty no arguments and they deserved to go through.

In regards to the Bayern match well this is the point isn't it?...against Bayern the majority of other teams would have caved in and probably lost 2/3-0, Real took their chances when they were presented to them (you also conveniently forget that Bayern's goal came from a Marcelo and Navas error), that's normally the difference at top level and what separates good and great teams.

There are probably more examples of favorable events but the eyes see what they want to see, I bet I can find equally as many examples of them being unlucky in situations and matches...we can be here all day pointing at moments in matches but at the end of the day the end result is that they've come out victors more often than not, says a lot more about them than your 'lucky' narrative.

Because you're straw-manning my narrative. I've said they're an excellent team but you agreed with me that it takes a certain amount of luck to win. In the past two seasons they've had the breaks largely go their way. Another team with equal quality with the breaks going in their favor could have done the same thing. Real Madrid isn't a team that is heads and shoulders above everyone else. Their strong mentality helps them but so has good fortune in the last few seasons which is why they're in a position to win 3 in a row. I don't get how that's controversial?