Why do Spurs accept bad decisions against us?

TheRevolution · Jun 4, 2019

Champions League penalty was hard to take but lets take the high road and move on. Try not be like Liverpool fans who blamed their loss last year on a Sergio Ramos intentional arm break conspiracy. Think the players and manager even came out and bashed him over it.

mpickard2087 · Jun 4, 2019

rez9000 said:
Which I don't engage in. I call a spade a spade.

And referee decisions being wrong historically doesn't make this one suddenly OK. I'm commenting on one decision. That right isn't negated by others questioning every decision. Nor does it negate it for those who do. In point of fact, I'm actually criticising a wider decision - the blanket instruction that referees have been given that all contact between ball and hand in a game is to be given as handball. That isn't something that has existed before as Peter Walton quite specifically explained after Man City's penalty in the first leg of the Quarter Final. Referees in the CL have been instructed this season that they are to give any contact between hand and ball, even accidental, as handball. That is a terrible decision and can and should be critiqued.

The argument around the referee's decision is not just one that is happening on this forum or within our fanbase only. It is going on in other places too and by people who have no dog in the fight. There are differing opinions This isn't strictly a Spurs matter, as the incident between PSG and Man U also demonstrates. There is a discussion to be had over the issue of officiating in the Champions League and this discussion is not invalidated by your view of it, nor does it mean that everyone who takes the opposing view is asserting a conspiracy.

Criticise the conspiracy theorising, sure. Criticise the hypocrisy of claiming to be a victim and then scorning others who do the same, sure. Believing that the referee didn't make a mistake is entirely your prerogative. But surely denying others the privilege of believing otherwise isn't right, is it?

Referees make mistakes. Criticising that is not a sin. I've not said the referee made the decision to further an agenda, have I? And yet the thrust of your posts suggest that any kind of criticism of the referee, or any criticism of refereeing in general is only rooted in the 'everyone's out to get us' camp and nowhere else. Can we not say that the referee made a mistake without it automatically meaning that we think there's an agenda behind it? And isn't suggesting that criticising a referee is only motivated by paranoia or victimisation just as intractable and inflexible a position as the stating that a refereeing 'mistake' is only due to a conspiracy? Is there no middle ground?

I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theorising, but that doesn't negate my right to analyse a referee's decisions nor to conclude that it had an effect on a match. If, as you say, referees have given decisions for accidental handball in the past, that doesn't make it right. It just means it has happened.

The fact of the matter is that there is split opinion on whether the penalty decision on Saturday was a correct call or not. And as I've said, repeatedly, my view is that it was within the letter of the law, but not in the spirit of the law. And that's a valid position to take and one that people not connected to the club have also taken.

As I said before, I can understand your irritation at the slightly paranoid idea of an anti-Spurs agenda - it's a silly thing to believe. But that doesn't mean that my view of ineptitude by officials is invalidated.

I understand your position. I don't agree with it, but I acknowledge why you have drawn your conclusion. Isn't that the end of the argument, if we can't convince one another of our positions? Is there any need to conflate the contrary position to a perceived motivation that may not necessarily apply? Do you believe that everyone who thinks the referee made a mistake is, in every instance, also someone who believes that he did so because he was out to 'get us'?

That's the key. That's what I'm critiquing. That you think that one cannot criticise a referee because doing so automatically means one is suggesting conspiracy or victimisation. That simply isn't fair.

I agree that deeming everything to be handball would be a problem, I have already given the examples of the PSG match and Rose, but I don't see the problem with the Sissoko one. I've personally been watching football for 25 years, and I'd expect a penalty to be given at every point in time (under whatever tinkering of the rules that has occurred) for what happened.

My wider point is that many/most Spurs fans with obvious bias never accept any decision a referee makes, even ones where there is little defence, and then poor officiating becomes a narrative every single game amongst many many posters.

Lets takes some recent examples.

Son gets at best a tiny bit of contact, throws himself to the floor in hilarious fashion, gets booked. SC's reaction - PENALTY!!!! Everyone else cons the ref and gets penalties for that.

Son gets sent off for losing the plot and very very aggressively shoving a player to floor - Shoving someone in the chest isn't a red card usually, and anyway, he was provoked!

Foyth gets a red card for a studs up over the knee tackle - It's not as if he caught him fully!

Add stuff like the Burnley match, one of our many gutless and pathetic Spring performances, where no it wasn't the teams fault, Mike Dean gave them a corner that wasn't so it was all his fault we lost. That time it wasn't just the fans who came to that excuse, sadly Poch did too.

Until we eventually get to this one. It cant be a handball despite Sissoko blocking it whilst doing his best Travolta impression, for reasons such as he didn't mean to do it, it was too early in the game, VAR didn't look at it properly, he was nervous, and the unmentioned, but always present excuse, because it happened to Spurs.

I'm not going to respond again, but if some of you want to apportion the blame to the referee instead of some of our 'heroes' absolutely stinking the joint out because it's easier for you, then go ahead. I just think it's strange, though predictable.

DiscoD1882 · Jun 4, 2019

mpickard2087 said:
I agree that deeming everything to be handball would be a problem, I have already given the examples of the PSG match and Rose, but I don't see the problem with the Sissoko one. I've personally been watching football for 25 years, and I'd expect a penalty to be given at every point in time (under whatever tinkering of the rules that has occurred) for what happened.

My wider point is that many/most Spurs fans with obvious bias never accept any decision a referee makes, even ones where there is little defence, and then poor officiating becomes a narrative every single game amongst many many posters.

Lets takes some recent examples.

Son gets at best a tiny bit of contact, throws himself to the floor in hilarious fashion, gets booked. SC's reaction - PENALTY!!!! Everyone else cons the ref and gets penalties for that.

Son gets sent off for losing the plot and very very aggressively shoving a player to floor - Shoving someone in the chest isn't a red card usually, and anyway, he was provoked!

Foyth gets a red card for a studs up over the knee tackle - It's not as if he caught him fully!

Add stuff like the Burnley match, one of our many gutless and pathetic Spring performances, where no it wasn't the teams fault, Mike Dean gave them a corner that wasn't so it was all his fault we lost. That time it wasn't just the fans who came to that excuse, sadly Poch did too.

Until we eventually get to this one. It cant be a handball despite Sissoko blocking it whilst doing his best Travolta impression, for reasons such as he didn't mean to do it, it was too early in the game, VAR didn't look at it properly, he was nervous, and the unmentioned, but always present excuse, because it happened to Spurs.

I'm not going to respond again, but if some of you want to apportion the blame to the referee instead of some of our 'heroes' absolutely stinking the joint out because it's easier for you, then go ahead. I just think it's strange, though predictable.

I don’t think there would be a fan of a club In the world that wouldn’t question the penalty given against them after 25 seconds of a European cup final. If it was given against them. This isn’t a simple as your explanation. Some of us have not seen us in a champions league final for 35 years. Some fans have never seen us in a final. And to be chasing the game after such an early goal. And giving a distinct advantage to the opposition. What is wrong with questioning it. It isn’t sour grapes. It’s a massive discussion point which could have been the difference between us winning it and losing it. And before mentioning the second goal. This was at a point where we were chasing the game.

I get your point. But just dismissing it as shit happens. Isn’t good enough for me. I’m not going to bleat on about it. But it 100% affected our game. And our game plan. Thus affecting the match. It wasn’t black and white. So of course it’s going to be discussed. Do you think the Man City forums weren’t awash with fans complaining about the Llorente goal??

DFF · Jun 4, 2019

I do think we need to get more street-wise as a club. Poch mentioned it last year after we got knocked out by Juve. Their chairman, Agnelli, was down in the tunnel at HT pressuring the officials. Poch said it was a learning experience for him.

Similarly our players need to know when a FK is more advantageous to us than playing on. Stop, fall over, whatever. Make the ref give the FK. Too many times this season (and in the final) I saw us play on with no discernible advantage whatsoever.

Kicking the ball at players’ arms. If that indeed becomes a “thing”, even if they eventually change it back, we need to be on it too. Leicester won a title on the back of a defence that blatantly held on to players in the box every time, before it was cracked down on too late at the end of the season.

Call it shithousery or street smarts or whatever. We need more of it.

mpickard2087 · Jun 4, 2019

DiscoD1882 said:
I don’t think there would be a fan of a club In the world that wouldn’t question the penalty given against them after 25 seconds of a European cup final. If it was given against them. This isn’t a simple as your explanation. Some of us have not seen us in a champions league final for 35 years. Some fans have never seen us in a final. And to be chasing the game after such an early goal. And giving a distinct advantage to the opposition. What is wrong with questioning it. It isn’t sour grapes. It’s a massive discussion point which could have been the difference between us winning it and losing it. And before mentioning the second goal. This was at a point where we were chasing the game.

I get your point. But just dismissing it as shit happens. Isn’t good enough for me. I’m not going to bleat on about it. But it 100% affected our game. And our game plan. Thus affecting the match. It wasn’t black and white. So of course it’s going to be discussed. Do you think the Man City forums weren’t awash with fans complaining about the Llorente goal??

So we question it because it wasn't what the fans wanted to see and didn't consider their feelings?

What deserves questioning and forensic analysis and debate, as I have repeatedly said elsewhere, is why we came out for a cup final (any match in fact) half asleep and the first six actions of the match being six mistakes and/or being second best to the ball and so it ends up in our penalty area immediately where anything can then happen.

That deserves discussion, not Sissoko giving a handball away whilst mimicking directing traffic.

ohtottenham! · Jun 4, 2019

Done to death. Wish the ref would close this thread. I had more issue with the Danny Rose penalty decision against City, but grudgingly accepted that with the unforgiving rule re arm extended, unnatural position. Sissoko pointing at the heavens in his own penalty area, then bringing his arm down with ball contact...well, my heart sank. Couldn't believe what I'd just seen, but expected the inevitable. Let's just move on.

rez9000 · Jun 4, 2019

mpickard2087 said:
So we question it because it wasn't what the fans wanted to see and didn't consider their feelings?

No, we question it because it was contentious. That might not be your opinion, but yours is only one opinion. Others differ in their opinion. That's fair enough, isn't it?

What deserves questioning and forensic analysis and debate, as I have repeatedly said elsewhere, is why we came out for a cup final (any match in fact) half asleep and the first six actions of the match being six mistakes and/or being second best to the ball and so it ends up in our penalty area immediately where anything can then happen.

But your choice of what to analyse is your opinion only. Others want to analyse other things. What you choose to focus on is entirely your prerogative. What isn't your, or anyone else's, prerogative is to decide which factors are relevant and which aren't. None of us has that right.

You feel that the performance alone deserves analysis. That's fair enough, and you're at liberty to solely focus on that. Others believe that the penalty also contributed and they are just as much at liberty to analyse it, aren't they? Again, onions and all that, right? We won't all agree on every aspect of a match, will we?

That deserves discussion, not Sissoko giving a handball away whilst mimicking directing traffic.

And that aspect of the match has been, and is still being, discussed. No-one, as far as I'm aware, has said that you or anyone else can't or shouldn't discuss it, have they? If they have, then I'd say to them what I've said to you - that we have the right to draw our own conclusions about what contributed to the loss and to discuss them freely.

We all have our view on how the match unfolded and believe that different factors had a bearing and will want to discuss it. Surely that's OK?

ohtottenham! · Jun 4, 2019

mpickard2087 said:
Until we eventually get to this one. It cant be a handball despite Sissoko blocking it whilst doing his best Travolta impression, for reasons such as he didn't mean to do it,

636490260492356843-D1-LLINE-SATURDAYNIGHTFEVER-29-22707377.JPG

Well, despite the build up, we only had Saturday Night Fever for about 20 secs, then we were barely Stayin’ Alive for the rest of the 95 mins. Our players hardly got into 1st gear and had little movement, even though us fans were screaming, You Should be Dancing! Still, when it comes to, How Deep is Your Love? we’re all Tottenham till I die!

Krule · Jun 4, 2019

The thread title asks the question Why do Spurs accept bad decisions against us? and the answer is simple....because there is no other choice...you take it, you swallow it and you move on. Let's not just refer the question to the Champion's League final, your title wording suggests that we have endured many such moments in silence.

I have witnessed many bad decisions against this club in the (over 50) years I have been supporting them and I am certain supporters of all the other teams are able to say likewise but there is no point dwelling on these moments. For example I have never,ever yet seen a referee change his mind over a penalty decision as a result of the crowd or the defenders protesting...it just doesn't happen.

As rez9000 quite rightly says, we have a platform here to have a good old moan about it with fellow supporters and discuss the various factors that influenced the match result. It is not reasonable however to say "Are we just going to accept this ?" as if there is some way of making an official complaint or appeal. Imagine how we would rip apart any of our rivals if they tried to do such a thing ?

We have a post mortem in here, we air our grievances and then we move on to next season. I could sit at home all day looking at the replay of that CL penalty and complain on social media or write letters but it will change NOTHING...even if every Spurs supporter in the world did the same. According to Champions League rules it was a penalty....what grates with us all is how very,very,very early on in the game it was awarded but by the same token what if it had been 0-0 and given with just 30 seconds left, leaving us no chance of making a come back. It's swings and roundabouts and I certainly do not believe Tottenham is being singled out to receive a tough deal all the time.

In all honesty the manner in which we quietly slipped into fourth spot whilst dropping points like autumn rain would suggest (especially with other mind boggling results going our way) that the Gods have shone favour on us this season. We accept bad decisions with grace because we willingly accept the others that go our way to the detriment of someone else.

Now can we please draw a line under 2018/19.... look forward to the next Premiership season.....new signings....Champions League football (yet again) and everything that fate has in store (good and bad).... (y)

Krule · Jun 4, 2019

ohtottenham! said:
Done to death. Wish the ref would close this thread. I had more issue with the Danny Rose penalty decision against City, but grudgingly accepted that with the unforgiving rule re arm extended, unnatural position. Sissoko pointing at the heavens in his own penalty area, then bringing his arm down with ball contact...well, my heart sank. Couldn't believe what I'd just seen, but expected the inevitable. Let's just move on.

Nailed it... (y)

TwanYid · Jun 4, 2019

Monkey boy said:
To be fair in May just be my conception of things but we do seem to get a lot of controversial decisions go against us in big games. The point about just accepting them I think is fair aswell as to be honest even though I know we’ve been on the receiving end of some real dodgy ones particularly in FA cup semi finals I’d be hard pushed to name them now.

Off the top of my head in just big cup games:

Saturdays handball
Rose handball in QF
Lack of red card for Utd players last season
Moses dive
Chelsea ghost goal
Lack of red card for Cech
Pompey goal being offside

I’m sure there’s more and I guess some could argue either way on a few of the above but yeah it does seem that we get done quite a lot of the time but then just accept it and move along as what else can you do.

mano-obe · Jun 4, 2019

It was worse back in the day. When Harry took over we got the rub of the green the first time in decades. If you read other peoples forums they seem to think we get the better decisions.

I don't think we are treated any better or worse than other teams at all. This thread seems a bit far fetched.

The one stand out game where we played Stoke at their stadium about 7 or 8 years ago was atrocious. Chris Foy was the ref. We wont see anything like that again hopefully

Bulletspur · Jun 4, 2019

fedupyid said:
I have a question for Spurs fans why do we accept bad decisions against us there seems to be unfair bias against us?
This is a few examples:
Son Heung Min sending off against Bournemouth
Mousse Dembele suspension for the eye gouge against Chelsea when they were never punished for the same.
Ball to hand penalty in the Champions league Final
Pochettino ban because of Mike Dean. (Klopp does this all the time even got away with entering the field of play.
Jamie Redknapp the only player ever to get a yellow card upgraded to a red.

I will assume that you are probably serious with this so I will bite. All of the above were the correct decisions so stop your moaning. Leave this kind of talk to the Scousers. We should not play the victim, so don't start!

Krule · Jun 4, 2019

mano-obe said:
It was worse back in the day. When Harry took over we got the rub of the green the first time in decades. If you read other peoples forums they seem to think we get the better decisions.

I don't think we are treated any better or worse than other teams at all. This thread seems a bit far fetched.

The one stand out game where we played Stoke at their stadium about 7 or 8 years ago was atrocious. Chris Foy was the ref. We wont see anything like that again hopefully

This thread is very, very tired.....someone needs to perform the coup de grace....
and put it out of its misery.

ffspurs · Jun 6, 2019

In my opinion there is no conspiracy, no refs have it in for us, but what in did pick up on last season, particularly m in the prem was some very poor refereeing displays. In general these effected opposition as much as us.

It's not just the big game changing decision but the missing alot of shoves, failing to show yellows etc which effects the flow of the game.

Hopefully var will eliminate the big game changing routes next season. But we're need to be smarter. Look at the Bournemouth game, Lerner played the ref brilliantly. Fouled son, gave him a tap in the back, stood on his toe and flew down as soon as son put hands on him. He played the ref brilliantly and we fell into the trap.

It seemed to me some teams played the ref alot better than we did. Maybe they research better how far they can push a ref. You look how many times defenders made just enough contact to put kane etc off but not commit a foul then compare with how many time we give away a free kick in the same scenario. Whether it's us being rash, or other teams being smart we need to ensure we get the best out of the ref.

absolute bobbins · Jun 6, 2019

A conspiracy would imply competence from those running the game. If you'd trust any of them to run a bath, let alone orchastrate a conspiracy that has never leaked, you're an idiot.

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