TottenhamMattSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 10,925
- 16,007
Lloris, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Dembélé, Sissoko, Llorente are not young.
Levy, ENIC and DC
- Thread starter Graysonti
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Gilzeanking
Well-Known Member
- May 7, 2005
- 6,107
- 5,038
This doesn't affect me directly so I would accept a correction , but the ugliest part of the summer TW seems to me to be Club manipulation of ITK . The initial ITK was incredibly positive . Am I right in saying that season ticket renewals occur in this initial phase ?
If so , this would run fraud fairly close surely.
TottenhamMattSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 10,925
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I didn't buy a season ticket because a compete stranger said on the internet that Tottenham would change their tactics after nearly 20 years.
If anyone did, they need their head looking at.
CowInAComa
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 7,293
- 18,237
Still waiting on that Kane lad to come good?
Metalhead
But that's a debate for another thread.....
- Nov 24, 2013
- 25,409
- 38,424
I'm talking in a general sense. It does feel like we have been talked about as having a young, improving squad for quite a while. I would love us to win something, even if just a league cup so that we can be seen as more than just a work in progress.
michaelden
Knight of the Fat Fanny
- Aug 13, 2004
- 26,450
- 21,805
But Lloris, Verts & Aldi don't need to be young as those positions generally reach peak later in their careers.
Cavehillspur
Well-Known Member
- Jan 28, 2011
- 14,055
- 18,370
I don't even think we can afford to lose Sissoko at this stage, central midfield is obliterated enough as it is.
Shadydan
Well-Known Member
- Jul 7, 2012
- 38,247
- 104,143
6 players don't make up a squad.
Nebby
Well-Known Member
- Dec 27, 2013
- 3,363
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Precisely. What kind of club do we really want to be? What kind of club can we realistically afford to be?
I want the club to develop players, bring them up through the ranks. Make us a real football club. Not the kind of club that stifles career progression and limits opportunities.
I also think far too many fans forget or ignore the fact that prudence and careful management means we are now in position to hold onto our best players. We will never achieve success if our players can be spirited away by the likes of United and Madrid.
Part of that means rewarding them financially, which we can now do. But it also means picking players with the right mentality. Picking players that will be loyal and not have their heads turned the minute they show their potential. And a big part of that depends on building from within, not just buying in the links of Berbatov or Modric, who were considered not good enough by the big boys when they signed for us. We don't want to be a club that develops talent for others to come in and poach.
They say that to be successful in Formula One, you add the driver last. I'd say the same is true in football, assuming you don't have vast amounts of oil money to buy your way to the top.
We now have training and development facilities that are second to none. We're about to move into a world class stadium, that will generate huge revenue - as well as provide an amazing environment to play football. We have the right manager, with the right philosophy for the club we are now and the club we aspire to be tomorrow.
doctor stefan Freud
the tired tread of sad biology
- Sep 2, 2013
- 15,170
- 72,170
So far
Shadydan
Well-Known Member
- Jul 7, 2012
- 38,247
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Obviously didn't speak to Kane's, Son's, Lamela's or Poch's agent then.
Nebby
Well-Known Member
- Dec 27, 2013
- 3,363
- 6,377
I'm sure our players are all absolutely livid that the club hasn't bought in a raft of replacements. They must be feeling really unsettled.
TottenhamMattSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 10,925
- 16,007
They do increase the average age though....
Shadydan
Well-Known Member
- Jul 7, 2012
- 38,247
- 104,143
Yep, but they don't make up a 'squad'...
TottenhamMattSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 10,925
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Yes they do. They're all squad members. If they don't make up a squad then we might as well release them all from their contract.
They don't constitute and entire squad, but they are 6 players usually found on a 17 man match day squad, often the starting 11.
Ergo, we don't have an exclusively young squad.
Shadydan
Well-Known Member
- Jul 7, 2012
- 38,247
- 104,143
What is this pedantic nonsense you're peddling
When people say that we have a young squad they're talking about the average age of the squad, you don't count the oldest players you imbecile.
Honestly, just stop - it's too early for this lol
mpickard2087
Patient Zero
- Jun 13, 2008
- 21,889
- 32,561
Long post alert.
First off, lets ignore the usual fan bollocks of 'this was the summer we needed to go for it', that's been said every summer for about 8 years now
I read a lot of posts on here and across social media and they seem to come across as that if we did win a title then that's the finish line, and everything stops. Time stands still. That one big targeted investment and then things are completed..... Ignoring what happens after that, that there would be even more pressure on us and more demands as sugar daddy clubs splurged even more money to catch up, and pressure on us to respond. It is always an ongoing process, and I believe has to be built sustainably.
There are multiple factors at work. The stadium being one of them. Fans need to engage their brains - As much as Levy/board will say for PR reasons it doesn't impact on spending (and that is probably true, relevant to our 'normal' levels of spending), we aren't even in the new gaff yet to enjoy any benefit of extra revenues and are still in the delicate phase of trying to finance/refinance and cover the costs. This wasn't the point where we would go on some mega money splurge, I'd have been amazed if we had. IIRC Poch himself even gave it to us straight not to expect big money signings just because we got a new stadium. Now I don't think anyone took that as no signings at all, and maybe there are other factors that have led to a sense of expectation of bigger spends such as an increase in ticket prices, but I think the fanbase by and large have constructed some fantasy narrative as to what was going to happen this summer.
Another factor is that the club seems to prioritise, pretty much annually going on their record of giving contracts, keeping the squad together, keeping those here who have contributed rewarded, and staying ahead of the game in terms of the players futures. There is a current issue with Alderweireld (who from the very start though, given the rumoured clauses in his contract, I suspect has largely seen us/this contract as a stepping stone to bigger things) but on the whole we never have contract issues and the club benefits from this. Yes people could point out (numerous) transfer duds and it hasn't all been perfect, but on the whole this environment has, especially recently, provided a platform where we have a stable core with players giving many years service and growing both themselves and as a team.
As an example, Kane this summer has gone from a rumoured circa 100k a week to 200k. Throw in no doubt bigger bonuses, signing on fees, agent fees, image rights stuff etc. then we might well be committing something like an extra 10m expenditure just by giving out that one contract. Now that is the biggest and most obvious example, but start giving new contracts across the squad and that's a decent chunk of resources committed, just on existing players rather than any new ones.....
And I haven't even got to the crux of it yet, how the club is set up to operate and what is Levy's way. Most of football - fans, media, even the players and people who run clubs themselves - are conditioned to the thought that whoever splashes the most money wins. Now that will likely be the case always, especially when everyone follows this same model, but that's never been ENIC's way. Levy isn't prepared, nor has the resources, to compete in this way, so tries to do it differently - and across his tenure has taken us on an upward trajectory. Firstly with the buying of young players who will grow the team, as individuals, and in value if they then leave. With that becoming harder and harder in the present market there's been investment in the academy and a rise in homegrown players after years of drought, and now the stadium.
I suspect Levy's ultimate aim is to compete, and win, by developing our own players and then supplementing them with high quality imports. We might not be able to buy a whole team of stars, but if we only have to buy half of it and the rest is developed in house...... Now that takes time, and I think there will be a lot of people, particularly youth watchers etc, who would say that if this is the vision and aim then the initial good work needs building on even further, and there will be a lot of fans who fair enough don't believe this approach is possible, or have the patience to wait for that to bear fruit or think they should have to wait that long, but to get to the very top up against petrodollar clubs then we will have to do something different. As our manager says, be brave, and forge a unique path.
As for this summer, and on the transfer front and how our squad now is, yes a bit disappointing/concerning but we are not in a disastrous position. Unique factors such as World Cup participation, and a few injuries don't help, but there aren't many holes in the squad. I don't know what's happened in terms of our main targets, but if we have adopted a policy of just shutting up shop rather than acting in desperation then I can understand that and actually don't mind it - how often has Plan D squad filler for the sake of it signings actually worked, or contributed anything? I'm not panicking about falling away as of now..... Quite honestly spending zero could see us fall out of the top four, but I think spending 200 million that could also happen. There are six teams and it's fine margins every year.
Personally I thought we needed two signings - a central midfielder who can dictate/run the game, and a Number 9 focal point striker that Poch loves and always has in his team. For the CM I do think it is a deficiency, but it does give Winks (on a more consistent basis) and hopefully Onomah a chance to establish themselves. If they do, great, and I think taking a chance on what we already have is much more logical than 'taking a punt on some young midfielder' as I have seen numerous times this week. As for the striker, it seems Poch is giving Llorente another chance, he hasn't banished him a la Janssen and others he hasn't rated (even ones he himself has signed), he's earned that right as manager. We will see.....
I don't believe we will be going away from 4-2-3-1, Poch always goes back to it, so we have enough attacking midfielders and Moura is a new signing effectively. Links to Martial and Zaha made no sense to me. I have concerns about Toby and especially Rose, but I'm ok with giving them the opportunity to get back to 100% (plus slowly transitioning out Dembele).
Ultimately it's how you see it. Overall I'd say it's a constant, rather slow, sustainable build within certain parameters and following a different path to the norm. Mistakes are made along the way, I'd do some things differently, but also come many good things. Some people, like me, wont mind that - the hard challenge of building something, hopefully developing our own players and style of play etc and then hopefully winning, appeals to me. Others, perfectly reasonably, have no time for all that, just want money spent and the best players and trophies ASAP. I think they have a while to wait for that though.....
First off, lets ignore the usual fan bollocks of 'this was the summer we needed to go for it', that's been said every summer for about 8 years now
I read a lot of posts on here and across social media and they seem to come across as that if we did win a title then that's the finish line, and everything stops. Time stands still. That one big targeted investment and then things are completed..... Ignoring what happens after that, that there would be even more pressure on us and more demands as sugar daddy clubs splurged even more money to catch up, and pressure on us to respond. It is always an ongoing process, and I believe has to be built sustainably.There are multiple factors at work. The stadium being one of them. Fans need to engage their brains - As much as Levy/board will say for PR reasons it doesn't impact on spending (and that is probably true, relevant to our 'normal' levels of spending), we aren't even in the new gaff yet to enjoy any benefit of extra revenues and are still in the delicate phase of trying to finance/refinance and cover the costs. This wasn't the point where we would go on some mega money splurge, I'd have been amazed if we had. IIRC Poch himself even gave it to us straight not to expect big money signings just because we got a new stadium. Now I don't think anyone took that as no signings at all, and maybe there are other factors that have led to a sense of expectation of bigger spends such as an increase in ticket prices, but I think the fanbase by and large have constructed some fantasy narrative as to what was going to happen this summer.
Another factor is that the club seems to prioritise, pretty much annually going on their record of giving contracts, keeping the squad together, keeping those here who have contributed rewarded, and staying ahead of the game in terms of the players futures. There is a current issue with Alderweireld (who from the very start though, given the rumoured clauses in his contract, I suspect has largely seen us/this contract as a stepping stone to bigger things) but on the whole we never have contract issues and the club benefits from this. Yes people could point out (numerous) transfer duds and it hasn't all been perfect, but on the whole this environment has, especially recently, provided a platform where we have a stable core with players giving many years service and growing both themselves and as a team.
As an example, Kane this summer has gone from a rumoured circa 100k a week to 200k. Throw in no doubt bigger bonuses, signing on fees, agent fees, image rights stuff etc. then we might well be committing something like an extra 10m expenditure just by giving out that one contract. Now that is the biggest and most obvious example, but start giving new contracts across the squad and that's a decent chunk of resources committed, just on existing players rather than any new ones.....
And I haven't even got to the crux of it yet, how the club is set up to operate and what is Levy's way. Most of football - fans, media, even the players and people who run clubs themselves - are conditioned to the thought that whoever splashes the most money wins. Now that will likely be the case always, especially when everyone follows this same model, but that's never been ENIC's way. Levy isn't prepared, nor has the resources, to compete in this way, so tries to do it differently - and across his tenure has taken us on an upward trajectory. Firstly with the buying of young players who will grow the team, as individuals, and in value if they then leave. With that becoming harder and harder in the present market there's been investment in the academy and a rise in homegrown players after years of drought, and now the stadium.
I suspect Levy's ultimate aim is to compete, and win, by developing our own players and then supplementing them with high quality imports. We might not be able to buy a whole team of stars, but if we only have to buy half of it and the rest is developed in house...... Now that takes time, and I think there will be a lot of people, particularly youth watchers etc, who would say that if this is the vision and aim then the initial good work needs building on even further, and there will be a lot of fans who fair enough don't believe this approach is possible, or have the patience to wait for that to bear fruit or think they should have to wait that long, but to get to the very top up against petrodollar clubs then we will have to do something different. As our manager says, be brave, and forge a unique path.
As for this summer, and on the transfer front and how our squad now is, yes a bit disappointing/concerning but we are not in a disastrous position. Unique factors such as World Cup participation, and a few injuries don't help, but there aren't many holes in the squad. I don't know what's happened in terms of our main targets, but if we have adopted a policy of just shutting up shop rather than acting in desperation then I can understand that and actually don't mind it - how often has Plan D squad filler for the sake of it signings actually worked, or contributed anything? I'm not panicking about falling away as of now..... Quite honestly spending zero could see us fall out of the top four, but I think spending 200 million that could also happen. There are six teams and it's fine margins every year.
Personally I thought we needed two signings - a central midfielder who can dictate/run the game, and a Number 9 focal point striker that Poch loves and always has in his team. For the CM I do think it is a deficiency, but it does give Winks (on a more consistent basis) and hopefully Onomah a chance to establish themselves. If they do, great, and I think taking a chance on what we already have is much more logical than 'taking a punt on some young midfielder' as I have seen numerous times this week. As for the striker, it seems Poch is giving Llorente another chance, he hasn't banished him a la Janssen and others he hasn't rated (even ones he himself has signed), he's earned that right as manager. We will see.....
I don't believe we will be going away from 4-2-3-1, Poch always goes back to it, so we have enough attacking midfielders and Moura is a new signing effectively. Links to Martial and Zaha made no sense to me. I have concerns about Toby and especially Rose, but I'm ok with giving them the opportunity to get back to 100% (plus slowly transitioning out Dembele).
Ultimately it's how you see it. Overall I'd say it's a constant, rather slow, sustainable build within certain parameters and following a different path to the norm. Mistakes are made along the way, I'd do some things differently, but also come many good things. Some people, like me, wont mind that - the hard challenge of building something, hopefully developing our own players and style of play etc and then hopefully winning, appeals to me. Others, perfectly reasonably, have no time for all that, just want money spent and the best players and trophies ASAP. I think they have a while to wait for that though.....
The reaction here is way over the top. ENIC/Levy have taken us from regularly finishing in the bottom half of the table under Sugar to three consecutive top three spots. Know how many times that's happened before in our history? Once. And they've done it in a league that's more competitive, more financially doped and more expensive to succeed in than it's ever been. Where squads are assembled for a half a billion, a billion quid and people hardly blink.
And I guarantee at every stage in those last fifteen years there have been people saying 'they won't take us to the next level'. The fact is they've taken us up several levels already. Our last fifteen years are pretty much uninterrupted progress - better players, better facilities, better results, better football. Why do people think that progress stopped at 17:00 yesterday?
I'm not going to go over the transfer window deals that didn't happen. I'll just say that anyone who thought Zaha was going to turn us into a league winning side. Or Martial was going to score the winner in the CL final next May is dreaming. We might have won the Cup. But we're still more than capable of winning the Cup with the current squad. But I doubt that will appease a lot of people here for much more than a week before they're demanding more.
The real reason people are losing their s**t isn't that they think we've missed the chance to get to the fabled next level. It's that they don't think we really belong here at this current level. That a quiet transfer window will result in Pochettino ripping up his contract next year, Harry Kane following him to Madrid or United, mass exodus of players and a return to mid-table obscurity. And they just want to win something, anything, right now in case it all falls apart. And convince themselves that this or that £70m player will make the difference.
Screw that. I want Tottenham to be competitive and successful for the next fifteen, twenty, thirty years. And longer. Long after MP has gone, long after Harry Kane's taken up punditry. And the way to do that is to constant, steady improvement, the expectation of always being in the top three or four clubs in the country, of being in the CL every season, or nearly every season. Bringing our own players through, buying young players on the way up and paying premium transfer fees/wages only when that offers something outstanding.
I look at United at the moment and their strategy is just embarrassing. Ridiculous wages to 29-year-olds with nothing to prove and only a season or two left at the top. No project, no strategy. Just a desperate desire to buy a trophy and not get left behind by City. Guardiola, on the other hand, is clearly building something for the next ten years. Mostly young players coming in, hungry for success, low on ego and completely bought in to what Guardiola's trying to do with tactics and objectives. We don't have City's money but we can follow that formula - and, in fact, it was our formula before it was theirs.
And I guarantee at every stage in those last fifteen years there have been people saying 'they won't take us to the next level'. The fact is they've taken us up several levels already. Our last fifteen years are pretty much uninterrupted progress - better players, better facilities, better results, better football. Why do people think that progress stopped at 17:00 yesterday?
I'm not going to go over the transfer window deals that didn't happen. I'll just say that anyone who thought Zaha was going to turn us into a league winning side. Or Martial was going to score the winner in the CL final next May is dreaming. We might have won the Cup. But we're still more than capable of winning the Cup with the current squad. But I doubt that will appease a lot of people here for much more than a week before they're demanding more.
The real reason people are losing their s**t isn't that they think we've missed the chance to get to the fabled next level. It's that they don't think we really belong here at this current level. That a quiet transfer window will result in Pochettino ripping up his contract next year, Harry Kane following him to Madrid or United, mass exodus of players and a return to mid-table obscurity. And they just want to win something, anything, right now in case it all falls apart. And convince themselves that this or that £70m player will make the difference.
Screw that. I want Tottenham to be competitive and successful for the next fifteen, twenty, thirty years. And longer. Long after MP has gone, long after Harry Kane's taken up punditry. And the way to do that is to constant, steady improvement, the expectation of always being in the top three or four clubs in the country, of being in the CL every season, or nearly every season. Bringing our own players through, buying young players on the way up and paying premium transfer fees/wages only when that offers something outstanding.
I look at United at the moment and their strategy is just embarrassing. Ridiculous wages to 29-year-olds with nothing to prove and only a season or two left at the top. No project, no strategy. Just a desperate desire to buy a trophy and not get left behind by City. Guardiola, on the other hand, is clearly building something for the next ten years. Mostly young players coming in, hungry for success, low on ego and completely bought in to what Guardiola's trying to do with tactics and objectives. We don't have City's money but we can follow that formula - and, in fact, it was our formula before it was theirs.
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