Winners ... we need winners

cliff jones · May 28, 2017

mendesstormer said:
So two very mediocre teams, have ended the season with three trophies between them. Spurs, who according to most neutrals are a far superior team at the moment, have ended with none. Arsenal put in probably their best performance of the season, especially considering their missing players, just when they needed it most. Whereas we let our level drop against Chelsea at the crucial moment (in the semi). Man U pretty much strolled through the Europa League. Whereas we have notably failed to make any significant impact on the competition in, what, about 8 or 10 attempts?

Would I swap with either of them? Probably not. We have a far better squad and, crucially, a far better team spirit than either of the aforementioned. We also have a great manager, who is learning all the time. But that steep learning curve needs to continue. Next season we have to win silverware, if this team is not to go unremembered by history.

What will it take? Apart from Poch becoming a little bit cuter and knowing how and when to get a performance out of the team when it really matters? Probably the addition of a couple of 'winners' to the squad. Our young players are hungry, and they don't lack self-belief, but none of them have really won anything before, and it's beginning to show. I'd love to see someone like Danni Alves, and even more so, Isco or Iniesta (we can dream). I think it's highly unlikely we'd get any of them, but this is the calibre of player we need most at this point in our development. Any slightly more realistic suggestions?

Over reaction. They've both got stronger squads than us. This boils down to mistakes. We made them in the semi and against the Belgians.

The squad just didn't deal with the Premier-CL cycle in Oct, Nov. this is where we need to strengthen, not in terms of if we buy him, who's place will he take. People who keep asking this question should create their own thread on the first xi and stay there.

eViL · May 28, 2017

dontcallme said:
We had a great start and won 12 of our last 13 games. How the fuck is that a collapse?

Lilbaz said:
Think he meant from the season before.

This.

rabbikeane · May 28, 2017

Totti's available

Led's Zeppelin · May 28, 2017

We all know the sports media can't handle anything more subtle than a housebrick.

Putting the word "trophy" on a short series of games does not make it a greater achievement than Spurs' trophy-less performances this season. Cup competitions are a lot to do with the luck of the draw. They are a matter of winning around half a dozen games, mostly as it turns out against lower league teams. If anyone seriously suggests that such a trophy is a superior achievement to Spurs consistent and thorough annihilation of Premier League opposition throughout the season, they have been taken in by the media.

Lovely though it is to win cups, it does not indicate any kind of superiority over a magnificent team performance like Spurs' this season.

eViL · May 28, 2017

dontcallme said:
We had a great start

We were no-where near a title Challenge by Christmas.

We were 5th on December 1st, had a great Christmas, but still ended 2016 already 7 points adrift of the Chavs despite being 3rd.

We didn't lose many but losing 10 points to draws before 2016 was over cost us.

I loved last season; but I maintain the hangover from the end of the season before and the international tournament was a bigger burden going into this campaign than people give it credit for.

I don't think Poch got much wrong, other than attempting to shoehorn Eriksen, Alli and Son into 3-4-2-1 for the Semi.

Gb160 · May 28, 2017

Led's Zeppelin said:
We all know the sports media can't handle anything more subtle than a housebrick.

Putting the word "trophy" on a short series of games does not make it a greater achievement than Spurs' trophy-less performances this season. Cup competitions are a lot to do with the luck of the draw. They are a matter of winning around half a dozen games, mostly as it turns out against lower league teams. If anyone seriously suggests that such a trophy is a superior achievement to Spurs consistent and thorough annihilation of Premier League opposition throughout the season, they have been taken in by the media.

Lovely though it is to win cups, it does not indicate any kind of superiority over a magnificent team performance like Spurs' this season.

This is it in a nutshell, it's all down to bragging rights and banter down the pub with fans of other clubs....the only stick they have to beat us with is the trophies, and the media will latch onto it as it lets them use the narrative "will X player leave in pursuit of trophies".

dontcallme · May 28, 2017

eViL said:
We were no-where near a title Challenge by Christmas.

We were 5th on December 1st, had a great Christmas, but still ended 2016 already 7 points adrift of the Chavs despite being 3rd.

We didn't lose many but losing 10 points to draws before 2016 was over cost us.

I loved last season; but I maintain the hangover from the end of the season before and the international tournament was a bigger burden going into this campaign than people give it credit for.

I don't think Poch got much wrong, other than attempting to shoehorn Eriksen, Alli and Son into 3-4-2-1 for the Semi.

Sure, there were lots of challnges.

There's no denying our league forrm flopped in October and November during the height of our short CL campaign.

We also had injuries to Kane, Alderweireld, Dembele, Rose,Lamela and Walker. Poch understandably took time to find the right formation to fit the available players.

The new players,Wanyama aside, failed to make impact.

So there were lots of reasons we have come away without a trophy, but it is not due to lack of winners imo.

shelfboy68 · May 28, 2017

Led's Zeppelin said:
We all know the sports media can't handle anything more subtle than a housebrick.

Putting the word "trophy" on a short series of games does not make it a greater achievement than Spurs' trophy-less performances this season. Cup competitions are a lot to do with the luck of the draw. They are a matter of winning around half a dozen games, mostly as it turns out against lower league teams. If anyone seriously suggests that such a trophy is a superior achievement to Spurs consistent and thorough annihilation of Premier League opposition throughout the season, they have been taken in by the media.

Lovely though it is to win cups, it does not indicate any kind of superiority over a magnificent team performance like Spurs' this season.

Our season was a magnificent performance but it will never show up on any roll of honour, whereas arsenals cup win adds to their ever lengthening list which pulls them further and further away.
The club and fans are all to aware of our shitty record at Wembley which is nothing short of a disgrace, and had we been lucky to be in the final yesterday I think we would have found a way of losing it.
Hopefully if we get off to a good start next season we might get some results on it which should help confidence among the team, although I still expect us to finish out of the CL spots next time.

Led's Zeppelin · May 28, 2017

Gb160 said:
This is it in a nutshell, it's all down to bragging rights and banter down the pub with fans of other clubs....the only stick they have to beat us with is the trophies, and the media will latch onto it as it lets them use the narrative "will X player leave in pursuit of trophies".

Exactly.

But if a winning mentality in football means anything, it must mean being the best you possibly can be. If you accept, as Arsenal fans are now doing because it suits them at the moment, that winning a cup is more important than being as good as your rivals, you are actually accepting a loser' mentality. It says that you don't mind being inferior as long as you have a good day out once in a while and a (sadly) diminished and now minor accomplishment that happens to be recognised with a famous trophy.

I'd rather be a member of the Dutch team that won nothing in the 70s than, for example, the Greek team that won the Euros, or many other trophy winners who were universally accepted to be vastly inferior. Winners? Yes. Superior in any way? Not on your great aunt Nora's Nellie.

Every supporter enjoys winning cups, but in their hearts they know that quality is the most important thing, even above the record books, regardless of what Jim White's remote-controlled gob may try to tell us. .

Shadydan · May 28, 2017

Good Lord...If winning a cup and underperforming in the league, finishing 5th despite being out of the title challenge by February, despite having the worst record amongst the top 6 and despite making the same mistakes again and again then I'd rather not have that kind of winning mentality around our squad thanks.

Japhet · May 28, 2017

Lack of quality on the bench is our problem. If we could regularly bring on Willian, Fabregas, Rashford, Mkhitaryian or even Carrick we'd be in much better shape.

dricha1 · May 28, 2017

3 things we require imho. Electric pace further up the field to help push teams such as Liverpool, Chelsea back when they turn the press tables on us. This Doesn't necessarily have to be in the first XI but can come from the bench, which leads into the second point; Poch needs to use the bench a little better. We rarely make subs before the 70minute mark. And finally, as much as I love Hugo, I still think having a goalkeeper as captain hinders a team when it's under pressure. An outfield captain would help us in this regard; Kane, Verts or Dier...

Shadydan · May 28, 2017

Japhet said:
Lack of quality on the bench is our problem. If we could regularly bring on Willian, Fabregas, Rashford, Mkhitaryian or even Carrick we'd be in much better shape.

You know what...if we didn't have injuries this season our bench would have been looking much stronger, having the likes of Lamela, Winks and Son as bench options would have helped us...although I guess this is why we are after players like Barkley.

Japhet · May 28, 2017

Shadydan said:
You know what...if we didn't have injuries this season our bench would have been looking much stronger, having the likes of Lamela, Winks and Son as bench options would have helped us...although I guess this is why we are after players like Barkley.

Completely agree. Losing Lamela and then Winks didn't help us one bit and left our bench looking very threadbare. Winks will be right in the frame from the word go next season if he's over his injury. Will be so good to have them and Danny Rose back again.

oohaahedgar · May 28, 2017

I think we will have a team of winners once we win a trophy, it is important psychologically to get over the line and pick up a trophy. Especially as we have been the best team overall in the league for a two year period, the players need it, they can as well as us fans can be quite fragile sometimes.
If Wembley had a negative effect and we failed to qualify for CL and we didn't win a trophy next year it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for this squad to have doubts which could force a few of the players to consider moving elsewhere (when you add wages into the equation) the following season.
On the other hand if we could win a cup and challenge again , I think we could dominate the league for a few seasons and have a period of success unseen since the 60s.
It really does matter, this winning thing but it has to be earned. I can't help feeling that we could have done better in the Europa League this season, it seemed to open up for UTD quite early and they seemed to win it without being anything other than decent.
Next season is pivotal.

shelfboy68 · May 28, 2017

oohaahedgar said:
I think we will have a team of winners once we win a trophy, it is important psychologically to get over the line and pick up a trophy. Especially as we have been the best team overall in the league for a two year period, the players need it, they can as well as us fans can be quite fragile sometimes.
If Wembley had a negative effect and we failed to qualify for CL and we didn't win a trophy next year it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for this squad to have doubts which could force a few of the players to consider moving elsewhere (when you add wages into the equation) the following season.
On the other hand if we could win a cup and challenge again , I think we could dominate the league for a few seasons and have a period of success unseen since the 60s.
It really does matter, this winning thing but it has to be earned. I can't help feeling that we could have done better in the Europa League this season, it seemed to open up for UTD quite early and they seemed to win it without being anything other than decent.
Next season is pivotal.

I applaud you for trying to put a positive spin on everything but I don't agree that we have been the best team for two seasons if so we would have won the league twice.
The best team overall wins the league that's why they are champions we were good but as usual had too many draws or lost the big games when under pressure, plus our failure to win at any of the top six was again our undoing.
We should not kid ourselves that despite our progress so far which is undeniably great we are still coming up short on certain big games semi-final, hammers away twice, these are the fine margins that players will often look at when deciding whether to move to another club that stands more chance of winning.
As rose said in his radio interview that some players will think are spurs just a nearly club, and on recent history that suggests we are.

Tucker · May 28, 2017

absolute bobbins said:
Huth, Morgan, Vardy, Drinkwater.

Oh and this winners thing, nonsense. It comes from journalists, it is based on their supposition and let's face it, if these people were psychologists, they would be sitting in the stands watching the match not having to write about it whilst getting paid peanuts.

Expand it out into any other sport or aspect of life and see if it holds true.

TaoistMonkey said:
Everyone is losing the bloody plot.

Just enjoy the season we just had.

Quoted these for truth.

We have a great team, maybe one of THE great teams. As they gain more and more experience the trophies will come, if we keep them together somehow they could be amazing and very successful.

Besides we have loads of winners in our team. Eriksen, Vertonghen, and Toby have all won league titles with Ajax. Do the not count, simply because they won a title in another country?

SpunkyBackpack · May 28, 2017

Absolute guff.

danielneeds · May 28, 2017

We make too many mistakes in big matches. That is an experience
thing. You can either buy some grizzled veterens to remedy it, or grow this team organically.

We learned from the end of last season, and we will learn from the mistakes in the CL, the semi final again this campaign.

shelfboy68 · May 28, 2017

danielneeds said:
We make too many mistakes in big matches. That is an experience
thing. You can either buy some grizzled veterens to remedy it, or grow this team organically.

We learned from the end of last season, and we will learn from the mistakes in the CL, the semi final again this campaign.

It would be nice if we can get out of the CL group stage after the disaster last time around, as for the end of the season the last couple of games we really expressed ourselves as the title was gone so the pressure was off, when the pressure was cranked up at west ham we sort of got the result we expected.
I don't see us getting CL next season but if we did whilst playing at Wembley they may even represent better qualification than this season just gone.

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