The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - DEADLINE DAY 31st August 2021

Archibald&Crooks · Sep 2, 2021

Budget schmudget.

vegassd · Sep 2, 2021

rez9000 said:
This is that the apologists seem to not want to grasp. The point is not whether Traore was the right signing or not. It's the fact that Levy interfered in something he shouldn't be interfering in.

If he hired Paratici on the promise of no interference, he's undermined his relationship with the key footballing member of staff in the whole operation - that's just plain bonkers and speaks to a character that is both arrogant and naive to the point of childishness about what his abilities are.

The Traore deal is certainly worrying and seems to be confirmed from plenty of angles that we only need a dusting of salt. It does feel like Levy sticking his oar in for the sake of it, but I imagine a lot of the fan response is probably over inflated.

For one, I can't imagine that Levy has ever told Paratici "I promise not to interfere". Paratici is an experienced guy and knows how the system works. I'm not saying he would be pleased about that deal being vetoed, but I equally don't think he will be crying in his cornflakes this morning because Levy broke his "promise".

Something else in Levy's defense here (and there isn't much!) would be that it's one deal out of a number this summer. We can probably all agree there has been a real paradigm shift in terms of our transfer dealings - stuff that I don't think Levy is capable of. I suppose it would be like if a mate gave up smoking and drinking, started eating healthy and going to the gym, but still swore in front of your parents... there's room for improvement but you wouldn't label them a complete write off!

On the flip side, everything from the player selection to the timing to the communication absolutely stinks. I'm obviously hopeful that Bergwijn or Moura has a blinder this season, but it's not like they are home grown mega stars that need protecting. And I would have thought that later in the transfer window is when you hand more control to your DOF so he can make snap decisions. It really is like falling at the final hurdle from Levy.

Something that I noticed Trix mention was Levy stepping in when the deal was heavily reliant on cash. That would seem to make sense if Levy is trying to balance the books to maintain certain credit ratings or satisfy loan deals (or whatever other financial nonsense), and if he is planning for further pandemic disruption. The failing then would be if he hasn't communicated that properly to the rest of the team.

I'm imagining a scenario where we have a budget for wages, a budget for long-term purchases and a budget for immediate cash purchases. It's as if Levy kept that last one to himself and just blew the plans out of the water last minute.

Obviously a lot of conjecture from me there, but however you look at this one I think it's cause for concern.

As an aside, I don't think using terms like "Levy apologists" really opens the door for constructive conversation about the topic. We're all Spurs fans at the end of the day so why invent battle lines to fight about? I only mention it to you because I know you've been labelled XYZ in the past and I know that you are generally open for discussion rather than name calling. (y)

Lo Amo Speroni · Sep 2, 2021

The one skill I wish I had was hindsight.
So many on here have it along with an ability to look into the future.
I just have to wait and see what unfolds ?.

Wils · Sep 2, 2021

GutBucket said:
It's not just that Levy thought it was too much for Traore, it's that he thinks that Lucas, Bergwijn etc are equal/better. I kind of understand since we paid a lot for Gil, but if Nuno wanted to sell Bergwijn and get Traore you do it 10 times out of 10.

Ultimately the manager should be backed and allowed to succeed or fail by his choices. Opinions may have been split on Traore but Nuno is the one that knows him, his attitude etc. I think its dangerous ground for the chairman to veto any deal on the basis other players in the team are just as good or better. Surely it has to be the mangers choice whether the chairman or we as fans agree with it or not. If it was for financial reasons then as others have already stated Levy should have said from the get go that this was the case.

Cavehillspur · Sep 2, 2021

Hercules said:
Alrighty, here we go.

Our DoF was given a budget, which he performed miracles, and kept well within. Basically near net-spend, without getting tied down on exact figures. If you take time to calculate our signings, they were basically ‘loans’ in essence. Yes! There are ‘Options/Obligations’. So not much spent.

Our DoF took on his role, as he was assured DL would not interfere once given his budget. The only time he would is if we were likely to exceed it. The financial department, and DL would sign off.

I said privately our DoF requested the help of Mendez on certain deals , more to assist the selling club, but also us. And I will not divulge beyond that. Around three weeks ago we started to make moves for Traoré, but for this to happen Mendez had to get a ‘mandate’ to assist. This was known privately, even before the media got wind of it.

The player himself made it known to Wolves, he wanted to join us. Liverpool were interested, but knocked back. We offered a derisory sum to Wolves. This at the interference of DL, who did not like the sound of ‘cash’ in any form, though spread out over term of his contract. He then suggested we do ‘Loan with option’ and insulting offer. He then offered ‘obligation’ but same offer. The initial down payment was a joke.

His view was ‘Traoré has around just under two years left’ and feel it was bad business to offer what Wolves wanted. Traoré told Wolves he would not be signing a new contract. Tuesday agreement was reached we would as good as meet their valuation, based upon realistic incentives, which was relayed they would accept. A meeting was held by DL and those involved, and he was not happy to sanction such an outlay. And argued on Stevie, Lucas, Gil, Lucas as ‘just as good’ and better. And we should use them in the mid-term.

There is/was money for a ‘special purchase’ and was being saved for the striker department. Nuno viewed Traoré as the ideal player to fulfil various roles, and create space etc, for our ‘capabilities to create goal scoring opportunities for players like Dele, Kane, Lucas, Gil, Son, GLC’

It was viewed that we need to cover this area, seeing we failed to bring in a striker, even on loan. We also tried for Neves lol.

I will be surprised if Paratici is here at the end of his contract, and already clubs over here looking at him. If you really believe Nuno will work under these conditions beyond his remit (2 years) we are wrong. Same reasons why he left Wolves

My conclusion is Mr Daniel Levy cannot let go, cannot grip himself. And Paratici is no glove puppet. For all of us very long-suffering supporters, I feel for us, because our club is a drug in our veins. COYS

Cheers Herc. Not one bit surprised at Levy interfering, always knew he would, frustrating as fuck.

Trix · Sep 2, 2021

vegassd said:
Something that I noticed Trix mention was Levy stepping in when the deal was heavily reliant on cash. That would seem to make sense if Levy is trying to balance the books to maintain certain credit ratings or satisfy loan deals (or whatever other financial nonsense), and if he is planning for further pandemic disruption. The failing then would be if he hasn't communicated that properly to the rest of the team.

This is the point. Levy didn't go in there saying "look guys we can't afford this with how the world is right now". According to both Herc and JJ, He went in stating how we didn't need Traore at that fee, because what we already have for that position was just as good if not better.

Genuinely can't see how people are defending this. The Chairman telling the manager and DOF how good players are compared to potential transfers is just not on.

Lets just say we sold Kane. Fab, Nuno, Hitchen and the scouting dept decide the best possible replacement is Vlahovic for £80mil, but Levy comes in and says "nope in my opinion Patrick Bamford is just as good if not better and he's only £40mil. I'm buying him instead.

Is that ok?

rez9000 · Sep 2, 2021

vegassd said:
The Traore deal is certainly worrying and seems to be confirmed from plenty of angles that we only need a dusting of salt. It does feel like Levy sticking his oar in for the sake of it, but I imagine a lot of the fan response is probably over inflated.

For one, I can't imagine that Levy has ever told Paratici "I promise not to interfere". Paratici is an experienced guy and knows how the system works. I'm not saying he would be pleased about that deal being vetoed, but I equally don't think he will be crying in his cornflakes this morning because Levy broke his "promise".

Something else in Levy's defense here (and there isn't much!) would be that it's one deal out of a number this summer. We can probably all agree there has been a real paradigm shift in terms of our transfer dealings - stuff that I don't think Levy is capable of. I suppose it would be like if a mate gave up smoking and drinking, started eating healthy and going to the gym, but still swore in front of your parents... there's room for improvement but you wouldn't label them a complete write off!

On the flip side, everything from the player selection to the timing to the communication absolutely stinks. I'm obviously hopeful that Bergwijn or Moura has a blinder this season, but it's not like they are home grown mega stars that need protecting. And I would have thought that later in the transfer window is when you hand more control to your DOF so he can make snap decisions. It really is like falling at the final hurdle from Levy.

Something that I noticed Trix mention was Levy stepping in when the deal was heavily reliant on cash. That would seem to make sense if Levy is trying to balance the books to maintain certain credit ratings or satisfy loan deals (or whatever other financial nonsense), and if he is planning for further pandemic disruption. The failing then would be if he hasn't communicated that properly to the rest of the team.

I'm imagining a scenario where we have a budget for wages, a budget for long-term purchases and a budget for immediate cash purchases. It's as if Levy kept that last one to himself and just blew the plans out of the water last minute.

Obviously a lot of conjecture from me there, but however you look at this one I think it's cause for concern.

Much of what you say makes sense, v. None of it reflects well on Levy.

As an aside, I don't think using terms like "Levy apologists" really opens the door for constructive conversation about the topic. We're all Spurs fans at the end of the day so why invent battle lines to fight about? I only mention it to you because I know you've been labelled XYZ in the past and I know that you are generally open for discussion rather than name calling.

Maybe if we hadn't endured months of being called 'bed-wetters' we might have been a little more constructive...?

longtimespur · Sep 2, 2021

Trix said:
This is the point. Levy didn't go in there saying "look guys we can't afford this with how the world is right now". According to both Herc and JJ, He went in stating how we didn't need Traore at that fee, because what we already have for that position was just as good if not better.

Genuinely can't see how people are defending this. The Chairman telling the manager and DOF how good players are compared to potential transfers is just not on.

Lets just say we sold Kane. Fab, Nuno, Hitchen and the scouting dept decide the best possible replacement is Vlahovic for £80mil, but Levy comes in and says "nope in my opinion Patrick Bamford is just as good if not better and he's only £40mil. I'm buying him instead.

Is that ok?

Dan the man being Dan the football man. Doesn't sit right somehow.
I've stated for some time that Levy should give the manager/DOF a set budget and let him/her use it as they see fit. But , alas, he still seems unable to.
I've always thought of DL as being the instigator of soo much that has improved our club but he always has to put his oar in. It's exasperating to the extreme.
Such is the problem of having a control freak in charge.

Trix · Sep 2, 2021

CockOnBall said:
IMO he is right not to trust THIS deal. You yourself had a problem with the Mendes’ link when Paratici was hired. In this deal, he represents Wolves, the player and our manager. The conflict of interests is all over the place and when you slap 50m for a player who is not fit to lace Moura’s boots, let alone Son’s, Levy is totally within his rights to pull the cord.

Let’s see if that causes a rift between Paratici and Levy. Hopefully Paratici is mature and experienced enough to know he doesn’t own the club he works for and if your boss isn’t comfortable spending 50m on a player who has an agent with clear conflicts of interests, he can understand and move on

Yeah cos that's why he knocked it back.

I have both backed and criticised Levy throughout his time with us and I've taken each incident on it's own merits. I've defended those targeted as BSODL because I felt he has needed defending at times from those that literally do just blame Levy for everything. This Summer has shown me conclusively though that A&C was right all along whatever he does there are certain people out there that will just defend his every single move regardless of what he does and they are just as one sighted as those that criticise his every move.

crazyguitarman · Sep 2, 2021

Lo Amo Speroni said:
The one skill I wish I had was hindsight.
So many on here have it along with an ability to look into the future.
I just have to wait and see what unfolds ?.

I find this kind of hindsight / foresight criticism tedious. Of course we judge the decisions made by the club based on hindsight. None of us regular plebs know the inner workings of the club or even any sense really of the kind of expertise required to be successful in the football world. All we can do is look back and say "well that decision turned out to be poor, but that other one was good, ..." and so on, while speculating on how current affairs may turn out in the future. Nobody can predict the future, but Daniel Levy earns millions of pounds because supposedly he can get close enough with his skills and acumen that overall more decisions turn out good than bad. When the past 2-4 years of decisions have turned out mostly on the bad side, the fans are well within their rights to raise criticisms over current business practices.

Bluto Blutarsky · Sep 2, 2021

CockOnBall said:
IMO he is right not to trust THIS deal. You yourself had a problem with the Mendes’ link when Paratici was hired. In this deal, he represents Wolves, the player and our manager. The conflict of interests is all over the place and when you slap 50m for a player who is not fit to lace Moura’s boots, let alone Son’s, Levy is totally within his rights to pull the cord.

Let’s see if that causes a rift between Paratici and Levy. Hopefully Paratici is mature and experienced enough to know he doesn’t own the club he works for and if your boss isn’t comfortable spending 50m on a player who has an agent with clear conflicts of interests, he can understand and move on

or, Paratici will realize that he will ultimately be judged by others on the players he brings in - and if someone else is making those decisions, then that puts a higher risk on Paratici.

If you hire someone to do a job - get out of the way, and let them do the job. Management 101

Aphex · Sep 2, 2021

This is a deal being set up by Paratici, Nuno who have only been at the club a matter of weeks, along with their mate Mendez having an exclusive mandate, to sign a player for a very high fee, 50 million, on a player who really is not anything special at all.

It stinks to be frank. I am not saying Nuno and Paratici are doing anything dodgy, but I think Levy just didn't like the smell of the deal at all.

Levy shouldn't be intefering with football matters, but there has to be some sort of fail safe switch which Levy can pull when he isn't happy.

At the end of the day the other signings we've made this summer look great, and Levy didn't interfer with those ones....only the over priced over rated Traore.

50 million is a big sum of money for Spurs, and spending it on Traore would be a huge fuck up.

thekneaf · Sep 2, 2021

Trix said:
This is the point. Levy didn't go in there saying "look guys we can't afford this with how the world is right now". According to both Herc and JJ, He went in stating how we didn't need Traore at that fee, because what we already have for that position was just as good if not better.

Genuinely can't see how people are defending this. The Chairman telling the manager and DOF how good players are compared to potential transfers is just not on.

Lets just say we sold Kane. Fab, Nuno, Hitchen and the scouting dept decide the best possible replacement is Vlahovic for £80mil, but Levy comes in and says "nope in my opinion Patrick Bamford is just as good if not better and he's only £40mil. I'm buying him instead.

Is that ok?

It's not OK, but easier to swallow when you think it's a decent call, especially given the agents involved and the inflated fee.

I'm more upset that it prevented us moving in a different direction altogether.

Bluto Blutarsky · Sep 2, 2021

In terms of player evaluation, and player valuations - I trust Paratici well above Levy. I am not sure I actually trust Levy at all to understand the nuances of the sporting aspect to make a proper player evaluation. He is neither trained to make such evaluations, nor does he have a track record of making those evaluations - he is really no better than many of the people on this board. who all have their own opinions.

That does not make Paratici, or Nuno, infallible when it comes to evaluating players, and their skills - but they are much better situated to make those decisions, and they are much more accountable for those decisions.

If Levy does not trust their judgement, then Levy made a mistake in hiring them.

Gspurs11 · Sep 2, 2021

Some talk of the groundwork being put in this window for landing Kessie on a free next summer, according to reports in Italy. Could be a Bosman deal in Jan

crazyguitarman · Sep 2, 2021

Aphex said:
This is a deal being set up by Paratici, Nuno who have only been at the club a matter of weeks, along with their mate Mendez having an exclusive mandate, to sign a player for a very high fee, 50 million, on a player who really is not anything special at all.

It stinks to be frank. I am not saying Nuno and Paratici are doing anything dodgy, but I think Levy just didn't like the smell of the deal at all.

Levy shouldn't be intefering with football matters, but there has to be some sort of fail safe switch which Levy can pull when he isn't happy.

At the end of the day the other signings we've made this summer look great, and Levy didn't interfer with those ones....only the over priced over rated Traore.

50 million is a big sum of money for Spurs, and spending it on Traore would be a huge fuck up.

Of course, but pulling that switch is supposed to be a last resort, and is a sign that in his mind the people behind that deal made a major fuck up. What kind of message does that send to Fabio and Nuno? This whole system is supposed to be set up so that the people with the correct expertise make these kind of calls.

Yid-ol · Sep 2, 2021

Trix said:
Question for those saying Levy was right to step in because Traore was too much money....

Where is your cut off point? For me transfers are either in the hands of the DOF or they aren't. In the morning we were ALL
hearing we were going back in for him(that's multiple sources) with a bid that they would accept, that was 100% the plan. By early afternoon that had changed because he was too expensive, and it was only one person that decided it was too much money.

Had the line been we don't have the budget to pay that much all along I'd have been fine with it, but it wasn't. So either the money for it was never there and Levy was leading Fab and Nuno etc on, or it was there and Levy didn't want to spend it.

The line when Fab came in was that he'd get a budget and there would be no interference.

I know some think it's great because they didn't want him anyway, or he was over priced. I've said the same I wasn't keen tbh, but that is not the point. The point is where do you draw the line. If he can veto one player at the last minute, how many more will he do in the future.

I agree he shouldn't get involved in the transfers. He does need to set a budget or net spend budget and wages at the start and then only get involved if any of these would go over the budget, not sure if was the case for this one?

There were a fair few calls that the asking price was too much in the player thread, so there were people who did agree it was too much, I think it was over the top for him, just, but I would have still said it was worth it to fill a gap in the squad we had now.

thekneaf · Sep 2, 2021

Bluto Blutarsky said:
In terms of player evaluation, and player valuations - I trust Paratici well above Levy. I am not sure I actually trust Levy at all to understand the nuances of the sporting aspect to make a proper player evaluation. He is neither trained to make such evaluations, nor does he have a track record of making those evaluations - he is really no better than many of the people on this board. who all have their own opinions.

That does not make Paratici, or Nuno, infallible when it comes to evaluating players, and their skills - but they are much better situated to make those decisions, and they are much more accountable for those decisions.

If Levy does not trust their judgement, then Levy made a mistake in hiring them.

I agree you trust your experts, but even by our ITK Paratici started the window not rating Traoré, but then changed his tune when he saw how he was playing. That's £50m 180 degree shift in opinion based on 3 games? Which opinion should Levy trust?

crazyguitarman · Sep 2, 2021

GRspurs11 said:
Some talk of the groundwork being put in this window for landing Kessie on a free next summer, according to reports in Italy. Could be a Bosman deal in Jan

If he is going on a free he will have his pick of clubs from Liverpool to Real Madrid IMO, but if Spurs manage to pull it off I think that will definitely be a coup.

Nick-TopSpursMan · Sep 2, 2021

Hopefully we go for Neto instead of Traore in Jan/next summer anyway, far better player with higher potential. Left footed and can play from the right too which provides better balance for a 433.

Levy getting involved in transfers won't end well though.

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