The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - DEADLINE DAY 31st August 2021

glacierSpurs · Sep 2, 2021

Levy is both the success and failure of this club.

He's not wrong to be against the purchase of Traore TBH. At £50mil, like many has mentioned, is probably really a risk. But he's so wrong to think Bergwijn, Gil and Lucas can do what Traore can do. To think he's been watching every one of our matches, he could have at least trust his eyes how many successful dribbles Bergwijn has actually make.

I detest Levy so much after the managerial search. But I keep having this question of would I really want him gone? I'm really not so sure. The risk of the club being run worse when he's replaced is not impossible. But then the fact that we are starting to build a solid, young and hungry squad now also got me thinking if he's to suddenly take his share finally and resigned the very next day, the chances of us to win something immediately under a new stewardship is also not impossible too, if our history with Levy could be referenced. He could well be the single problem we have won fuck all, instead of the issues being the managers all along.

Hakkz · Sep 2, 2021

glacierSpurs said:
Levy is both the success and failure of this club.

He's not wrong to be against the purchase of Traore TBH. At £50mil, like many has mentioned, is probably really a risk. But he's so wrong to think Bergwijn, Gil and Lucas can do what Traore can do. To think he's been watching every one of our matches, he could have at least trust his eyes how many successful dribbles Bergwijn has actually make.

I detest Levy so much after the managerial search. But I keep having this question of would I really want him gone? I'm really not so sure. The risk of the club being run worse when he's replaced is not impossible. But then the fact that we are starting to build a solid, young and hungry squad now also got me thinking if he's to suddenly take his share finally and resigned the very next day, the chances of us to win something immediately under a new stewardship is also not impossible too, if our history with Levy could be referenced. He could well be the single problem we have won fuck all, instead of the issues being the managers all along.

I want him gone from the football side of things. Set a budget and then fuck off to his spreadsheets again. People on here know as much about football as he does.

kendoddsdadsdogsdead · Sep 2, 2021

This is the thing, why is Daniel Levy getting involved in evaluating players? He’s not a football man, that’s quite clear. You can’t just look at stats. Just as good if you’re maybe going by them maybe I don’t know, but different teams and Traore has different attributes. He can hold the ball up, he can get us up the pitch consistently. He can effect the balance of the team more than the others. The others are all either average paced, can’t hold the ball back to goal. That’s what we’re going to struggle with this year as we’re not good enough to have sustained possession and pressure.

Trix · Sep 2, 2021

Question for those saying Levy was right to step in because Traore was too much money....

Where is your cut off point? For me transfers are either in the hands of the DOF or they aren't. In the morning we were ALL
hearing we were going back in for him(that's multiple sources) with a bid that they would accept, that was 100% the plan. By early afternoon that had changed because he was too expensive, and it was only one person that decided it was too much money.

Had the line been we don't have the budget to pay that much all along I'd have been fine with it, but it wasn't. So either the money for it was never there and Levy was leading Fab and Nuno etc on, or it was there and Levy didn't want to spend it.

The line when Fab came in was that he'd get a budget and there would be no interference.

I know some think it's great because they didn't want him anyway, or he was over priced. I've said the same I wasn't keen tbh, but that is not the point. The point is where do you draw the line. If he can veto one player at the last minute, how many more will he do in the future.

DogsOfWar · Sep 2, 2021

Hakkz said:
I want him gone from the football side of things. Set a budget and then fuck off to his spreadsheets again. People on here know as much about football as he does.

From the info provided he did set a budget with a special dispensation for a striker (because we don't have a back up).
Para, Nuno etc decided against a striker and wanted another wide attacker instead.

But we already have four of those in Son, Lucas, Steve, and Gil.

So he told them no, adding we can get him for half the price next year (possibly).

He's not getting involved in the football side just pointing out he's not sanctioning extra spending in a department that already has a full head count (to relate it to our own work experiences) instead of a department that is half short.

Levy's decision making is no different to any other Chairman of a £500 million business.

I don't like it and would rather have Traore but I think there is a mis-interpretation of Levy's actions as meddling in football matters when it's him refusing to sign-off on a large outlay for an area that is already stacked which is a business matter.

GutBucket · Sep 2, 2021

It's not just that Levy thought it was too much for Traore, it's that he thinks that Lucas, Bergwijn etc are equal/better. I kind of understand since we paid a lot for Gil, but if Nuno wanted to sell Bergwijn and get Traore you do it 10 times out of 10.

DogsOfWar · Sep 2, 2021

Trix said:
Question for those saying Levy was right to step in because Traore was too much money....

Where is your cut off point? For me transfers are either in the hands of the DOF or they aren't. In the morning we were ALL
hearing we were going back in for him(that's multiple sources) with a bid that they would accept, that was 100% the plan. By early afternoon that had changed because he was too expensive, and it was only one person that decided it was too much money.

Had the line been we don't have the budget to pay that much all along I'd have been fine with it, but it wasn't. So either the money for it was never there and Levy was leading Fab and Nuno etc on, or it was there and Levy didn't want to spend it.

The line when Fab came in was that he'd get a budget and there would be no interference.

I know some think it's great because they didn't want him anyway, or he was over priced. I've said the same I wasn't keen tbh, but that is not the point. The point is where do you draw the line. If he can veto one player at the last minute, how many more will he do in the future.

I wanted Traore but I assumed one of Moura or Bergwijn would be out the door to make room for him.

I'm a manger in a £500+ million turnover business and to justify an increased headcount in my team someone has to either leave or I need to justify it based on a large increase in workload.
Neither of these are the case with getting another wide attacker in (as we already have four) so I understand why Levy would not sanction it (just as my MD wouldn't).

Again, I don't like it, but I understand it.

slartibartfast · Sep 2, 2021

kendoddsdadsdogsdead said:
This is the thing, why is Daniel Levy getting involved in evaluating players? He’s not a football man, that’s quite clear. You can’t just look at stats. Just as good if you’re maybe going by them maybe I don’t know, but different teams and Traore has different attributes. He can hold the ball up, he can get us up the pitch consistently. He can effect the balance of the team more than the others. The others are all either average paced, can’t hold the ball back to goal. That’s what we’re going to struggle with this year as we’re not good enough to have sustained possession and pressure.

You Tube lol.

Duke of Northumberland · Sep 2, 2021

robotsonic said:
Still think that if Adama Traore was ever a player worth us spending 50m on or everyone falling out over, that it was remiss of everyone involved to not have tried to go for him as our number one target at the opening of the window, as that's number one target money. If DL has even had a chance to cock anything up regarding such a transfer at a late stage, then it's largely because it was at such a late stage at all. It did the whole time seem pretty half baked a plan to try and prise him out after the season has already started when we'd have had no option but to pay out the arse in extra costs due to season having begun and him being in the same league, never mind Wolves crap start highlighting that they need their best players, so I simply cannot blame DL for not liking the situation and cost either (or even the transfer committee as a whole as JJ's info seemed to suggest).

Either way though I'm mainly hoping that all involved can now get their heads down and we can get on with the season proper. This window, given when he was appointed and the pandemic circumstances, was never going to be the making or breaking of Fab with Tottenham Hotspur. That's going to be next summer when he has a full year to assess the squad and target how to get it to where it needs to be. Personally very happy with the type of players that we've signed and have otherwise looked at, ironically really all of them except Traore! But love to be proved wrong so hopefully he has a good season and if we're still interested then maybe he can have convinced those of us who don't see him being worth that, Levy included, that he's worth that type of main target money and we go back in for him.

Yes. He only popped up as a target around our game against Wolves- I thought it was just media stirring. There have been other rumours that came and went earlier in the summer. What happened to Coady?

rez9000 · Sep 2, 2021

Hercules said:
Alrighty, here we go.

Our DoF was given a budget, which he performed miracles, and kept well within. Basically near net-spend, without getting tied down on exact figures. If you take time to calculate our signings, they were basically ‘loans’ in essence. Yes! There are ‘Options/Obligations’. So not much spent.

Our DoF took on his role, as he was assured DL would not interfere once given his budget. The only time he would is if we were likely to exceed it. The financial department, and DL would sign off.

I said privately our DoF requested the help of Mendez on certain deals , more to assist the selling club, but also us. And I will not divulge beyond that. Around three weeks ago we started to make moves for Traoré, but for this to happen Mendez had to get a ‘mandate’ to assist. This was known privately, even before the media got wind of it.

The player himself made it known to Wolves, he wanted to join us. Liverpool were interested, but knocked back. We offered a derisory sum to Wolves. This at the interference of DL, who did not like the sound of ‘cash’ in any form, though spread out over term of his contract. He then suggested we do ‘Loan with option’ and insulting offer. He then offered ‘obligation’ but same offer. The initial down payment was a joke.

His view was ‘Traoré has around just under two years left’ and feel it was bad business to offer what Wolves wanted. Traoré told Wolves he would not be signing a new contract. Tuesday agreement was reached we would as good as meet their valuation, based upon realistic incentives, which was relayed they would accept. A meeting was held by DL and those involved, and he was not happy to sanction such an outlay. And argued on Stevie, Lucas, Gil, Lucas as ‘just as good’ and better. And we should use them in the mid-term.

There is/was money for a ‘special purchase’ and was being saved for the striker department. Nuno viewed Traoré as the ideal player to fulfil various roles, and create space etc, for our ‘capabilities to create goal scoring opportunities for players like Dele, Kane, Lucas, Gil, Son, GLC’

It was viewed that we need to cover this area, seeing we failed to bring in a striker, even on loan. We also tried for Neves lol.

I will be surprised if Paratici is here at the end of his contract, and already clubs over here looking at him. If you really believe Nuno will work under these conditions beyond his remit (2 years) we are wrong. Same reasons why he left Wolves

My conclusion is Mr Daniel Levy cannot let go, cannot grip himself. And Paratici is no glove puppet. For all of us very long-suffering supporters, I feel for us, because our club is a drug in our veins. COYS

I just saw a popcorn maker on sale on Amazon for £26.95. I might shell out, make me some good ol' poppin' corn, and then sit back and see just how much spin Levy-apologists will apply...

Duke of Northumberland · Sep 2, 2021

SecretLemonadeDrinker said:
Nah. Arnesen didn't leave because of anything that specifically happened at Spurs. He left because Chelsea tapped him up, because they were funded by a superrich oligarch, and because he would have a far bigger budget to work with there....along with a far bigger wage.

The talk on SIMB at the time was he was bored of the lunch options around WHL…

Duke of Northumberland · Sep 2, 2021

rez9000 said:
I just saw a popcorn maker on sale on Amazon for £26.95. I might shell out, make me some good ol' poppin' corn, and then sit back and see just how much spin Levy-apologists will apply...

It will be reduced next summer to around £15 probably

robotsonic · Sep 2, 2021

Didn't we already have some info earlier this window (Ali G maybe) that there was still going to be a transfer committee on which Levy still sits, along with the usual crew plus Fab and Nuno? I can't say I ever put much stock in anyone, Fab or otherwise, getting free-reign over transfers without some veto power from the committee, or ultimately DL being as he's in control of the cash. But word coming out of the club was to the contrary, so I can see why if expectations don't line up with the reality and that's going to have pissed people off a lot more over how this Traore deal ended up not getting done.

Personally I'm not disappointed that DL canned it as it seemed too much money and too much Mendes for my liking for a player that I'm still convinced many would have laughed off earlier in the window, but also because I fully expected him to still have the ability to do so. Come what may, we're all now fully aware that anything coming out of the club regarding Fab working unfettered wasn't the whole truth, but I'm also of the opinion that Fab will have known that any transfers will have been subject to committee sign-off anyway, so I'm presuming we're not going to see any fall-out internally.

SpartanSpur · Sep 2, 2021

Trix said:
Question for those saying Levy was right to step in because Traore was too much money....

Where is your cut off point? For me transfers are either in the hands of the DOF or they aren't. In the morning we were ALL
hearing we were going back in for him(that's multiple sources) with a bid that they would accept, that was 100% the plan. By early afternoon that had changed because he was too expensive, and it was only one person that decided it was too much money.

Had the line been we don't have the budget to pay that much all along I'd have been fine with it, but it wasn't. So either the money for it was never there and Levy was leading Fab and Nuno etc on, or it was there and Levy didn't want to spend it.

The line when Fab came in was that he'd get a budget and there would be no interference.

I know some think it's great because they didn't want him anyway, or he was over priced. I've said the same I wasn't keen tbh, but that is not the point. The point is where do you draw the line. If he can veto one player at the last minute, how many more will he do in the future.

I think this says it all.

Nuno and Paratici may have agreed with Levy in the end, mainly because he is the boss. They were clearly happy to proceed with the signing.

I'm really going to appreciate that wage bill saving and adama money sitting in our bank account next time Moura/Bergwijn have an anonymous game (so most weeks). At least Adama causes carnage even when he doesn't score or assist.

I think it's a solid first window but we went into the last day hoping to boost our attack and bottled it over money, again...

thekneaf · Sep 2, 2021

Trix said:
Question for those saying Levy was right to step in because Traore was too much money....

Where is your cut off point? For me transfers are either in the hands of the DOF or they aren't. In the morning we were ALL
hearing we were going back in for him(that's multiple sources) with a bid that they would accept, that was 100% the plan. By early afternoon that had changed because he was too expensive, and it was only one person that decided it was too much money.

Had the line been we don't have the budget to pay that much all along I'd have been fine with it, but it wasn't. So either the money for it was never there and Levy was leading Fab and Nuno etc on, or it was there and Levy didn't want to spend it.

The line when Fab came in was that he'd get a budget and there would be no interference.

I know some think it's great because they didn't want him anyway, or he was over priced. I've said the same I wasn't keen tbh, but that is not the point. The point is where do you draw the line. If he can veto one player at the last minute, how many more will he do in the future.

If you have a boss, that boss can always veto a decision if you've gone off brief or over budget. Hopefully it's communicated well, but ultimately that's just how power structures work.

For me the line is Levy telling Nuno who and when to play players. He'll never be completely estranged from the business side.

In many ways it would be an abdication of responsibility to allow something he disagreed with to happen. And yes, I'll fully admit I'm less bothered by this as I thought it was an overpriced deal that didn't address the the needs I see:

A goal scoring winger
A old timer back up to Kane
A metronomic creative presence in midfield

If I was chairman I'd be saying, why are we overspending on this guy when we all agreed we were looking for the above?

spursfan77 · Sep 2, 2021

JUSTINSIGNAL said:
Seems sensible. 45m is helluva big fee for a player with such obvious flaws. Glad ALL of the transfer committee agreed it wasn’t worth it in the current climate.

You make a good point that seems to be forgotten, there is group thinking behind every deal. As much as I’m not Levy’s biggest fan, nobody but him knows the current up to the minute financial position of the club. That’s the reason he is on the transfer committee. He shouldn’t be there to give an opinion on the player, just the finances required to sign him. If the finances aren’t available, then that should be his reason for refusing the purchase. Now if it is because he thinks the player isn’t worth it, then it becomes murky because he obviously didn’t think it worth selling Kane, which most of us agreed was the correct move. What if the rest of the transfer committee wanted to sell him, who is correct there?

Everything isn’t black and white.

worcestersauce · Sep 2, 2021

I guess Hercules' post goes a long way to explain why Harry Kane felt he had to leave to be successful, he knows it's part of a pattern.
The bit that really concerns isn't the holding back the money it's the reason given for holding back the money, if he genuinely believes Bergwijn is as good and can't see that Traore is an upgrade and we could have recouped half the money back by moving Bergwijn on. Maybe he didn't feel it was enough of an upgrade for the outlay but that's not his job now he gave that decision to the new managing director of football.
Sounds a bit like Levy thought of the budget as a limit and Paratici thought of it as a target, I'd hope the shortfall carries over but I wouldn't bank on it.
Let's hope we can get another couple of windows out of our managing director of football before he's had enough.

Hakkz · Sep 2, 2021

DogsOfWar said:
From the info provided he did set a budget with a special dispensation for a striker (because we don't have a back up).
Para, Nuno etc decided against a striker and wanted another wide attacker instead.

But we already have four of those in Son, Lucas, Steve, and Gil.

So he told them no, adding we can get him for half the price next year (possibly).

He's not getting involved in the football side just pointing out he's not sanctioning extra spending in a department that already has a full head count (to relate it to our own work experiences) instead of a department that is half short.

Levy's decision making is no different to any other Chairman of a £500 million business.

I don't like it and would rather have Traore but I think there is a mis-interpretation of Levy's actions as meddling in football matters when it's him refusing to sign-off on a large outlay for an area that is already stacked which is a business matter.

If the footballing side, Paratici Hitchen NES, decided that's how to spend the set budget then that's how it is. He did meddle with the football side based on his own opinion that the options we have are enough (which they won't be). Earlier ITK said that he was opposed to get rid of Bergwijn too, which would have opened up a wing spot.

Either he gives control to the footballing director or he doesn't. He does as long as it suits him.

TPdYID · Sep 2, 2021

rez9000 said:
I just saw a popcorn maker on sale on Amazon for £26.95. I might shell out, make me some good ol' poppin' corn, and then sit back and see just how much spin Levy-apologists will apply...

Levy said the popcorn you can make in the microwave is “just as good” and you’d be mad to spend that £26.95 when there are products equal or > to already on the market.

rez9000 · Sep 2, 2021

Trix said:
Question for those saying Levy was right to step in because Traore was too much money....

Where is your cut off point? For me transfers are either in the hands of the DOF or they aren't. In the morning we were ALL
hearing we were going back in for him(that's multiple sources) with a bid that they would accept, that was 100% the plan. By early afternoon that had changed because he was too expensive, and it was only one person that decided it was too much money.

Had the line been we don't have the budget to pay that much all along I'd have been fine with it, but it wasn't. So either the money for it was never there and Levy was leading Fab and Nuno etc on, or it was there and Levy didn't want to spend it.

The line when Fab came in was that he'd get a budget and there would be no interference.

I know some think it's great because they didn't want him anyway, or he was over priced. I've said the same I wasn't keen tbh, but that is not the point. The point is where do you draw the line. If he can veto one player at the last minute, how many more will he do in the future.

This is that the apologists seem to not want to grasp. The point is not whether Traore was the right signing or not. It's the fact that Levy interfered in something he shouldn't be interfering in.

If he hired Paratici on the promise of no interference, he's undermined his relationship with the key footballing member of staff in the whole operation - that's just plain bonkers and speaks to a character that is both arrogant and naive to the point of childishness about what his abilities are.

Those people saying 'it's OK, because we didn't want Traore' ask yourselves this:

If we were in the market for a player you did want at the club and that transfer was blocked, would you be quite so sanguine about Levy's interference then? If he did it this time, he'll do it again next time. Maybe it isn't to the detriment of the club on this occasion (although that in itself is debatable) but one day it will be.

Spin that.

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