The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 20th August 2021

worcestersauce · Aug 24, 2021

StanSpur said:
I think by the sounds of the targets at the moment we are almost letting this season go (whilst hoping for some European place) and building for the next couple of seasons with young players. To this end you can see us not investing in a striker just yet in the hope that Scarlet or Parrot come good. This, I am sure is the reason Kane is so keen to leave, knowing that he is not going to be competitive at spurs during his peak years. I fully understand him wanting out and support it (just not the approach). The rebuild is needed and will be a slow and frustrating period but the young talent we are looking at could be exciting in 3 years time so worth the wait. We are not a city or chelsea that can just keep buying top players at top dollar so this is the only way and, seeing the quality come through the youth is so much more rewarding.

I agree, this was always the reason Harry Kane made the decision to go. While many people think we should be going all out to concentrate on getting back up this season Spurs are obviously at the start of a "new project" and at this point in his career that is not where he wants to be, yet again!

rawhide · Aug 24, 2021

Amo said:
The way his motivation yoyos from abject nothingness to sudden manic dedication and back again is the exact same problem I faced, symptoms of something that went undiagnosed and untreated for the vast majority of my life.

I got by on talent and occasional small, concentrated, bursts of productivity - until I suddenly hit a brick wall where that wouldn't be enough anymore.

I was earlier in his time here I suggested this and was absolutely slaughtered but I really do see a lot of my own troubles in him and hope he sorts it out eventually for himself even before the club.

Not for this thread, but this sounds awfully familiar

Yid-ol · Aug 24, 2021

Spurslove said:
It's a question I keep asking myself, and I never get to hear any coherent answers. Surely, he's a quality centre back who can play equally well at right back, so he sounds to me like the perfect 'oven ready' replacement of Doherty and Aurier. I know Fabio is renowned for keeping loads of 'possibles' on the go at the same time and just goes for the best ones when he thinks the time is right, but if we don't watch out, we're going to lose out on him.

Think it's been said there was no issue with the player or fee, it was how many games he would miss with the national team, and we wanted reassurances from Japan about it, but not heard anything since.

Plus Tanganga's performance vs City at RB and him not going out on loan along with Aurier and Doherty (if we can't shift them) means we probably don't see it as a priority just now.

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Aug 24, 2021

Atarrier said:
Whilst I completely agree he is wasting his obvious talent, that is his choice to make. By all accounts he is holding his side of his contract up (turning up to training, would play if selected etc). No one forced Spurs to sign him on a lengthy contract for £200k a week. Likewise no one forced Kane to sign a lengthy contract. That’s the gamble of football. You win some, you lose some.

But is he holding up his side of the contract? There must surely be an implicit, if not explicit, expectation that, at the minimum, he makes maximum effort to be fit and committed. If he falls short for quality or on pitch decision making then there might not be much that he can do about that….but not to bother to get fit in the first instance? Surely actionable?

StanSpur · Aug 24, 2021

SecretLemonadeDrinker said:
But is he holding up his side of the contract? There must surely be an implicit, if not explicit, expectation that, at the minimum, he makes maximum effort to be fit and committed. If he falls short for quality or on pitch decision making then there might not be much that he can do about that….but not to bother to get fit in the first instance? Surely actionable?

I don't think Kane is not making the effort. He was given extra time after getting to the final of the Euros only a few weeks ago. He then was 1 or 2 weeks behind the players in regards to match fitness. We cannot believe everything we have read about the situation both from our ITKs or the media as none of it is without a level of subjectivity and/or supposition. Kane came on in the second game and i have no doubt will start the next game in the league if not sold. That is roughly where you'd expect him to be given his summer. Sancho came in to Utd having played a lot less over the summer and has had limited minutes so far and a number of the other England players are slow to start. Kane loves playing football, he wants all the records, he needs to be playing to do that and knows that. his attitude will not be a problem and he will get his move this season or next so will keep working. TND on the other hand is seemingly just going through the paces and hence Nuno wont even put him on the bench - that is a player that is not making maximum effort.

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Aug 24, 2021

StanSpur said:
I don't think Kane is not making the effort. He was given extra time after getting to the final of the Euros only a few weeks ago. He then was 1 or 2 weeks behind the players in regards to match fitness. We cannot believe everything we have read about the situation both from our ITKs or the media as none of it is without a level of subjectivity and/or supposition. Kane came on in the second game and i have no doubt will start the next game in the league if not sold. That is roughly where you'd expect him to be given his summer. Sancho came in to Utd having played a lot less over the summer and has had limited minutes so far and a number of the other England players are slow to start. Kane loves playing football, he wants all the records, he needs to be playing to do that and knows that. his attitude will not be a problem and he will get his move this season or next so will keep working. TND on the other hand is seemingly just going through the paces and hence Nuno wont even put him on the bench - that is a player that is not making maximum effort.

Post was about Tanguy, not Harry!

robotsonic · Aug 24, 2021

Weren't there some photos of him where he actually looked slimmer and in better shape than we've ever seen him? I had the impression that he's not playing because he rabidly wants out, rather than is unfit.

Amo · Aug 24, 2021

SecretLemonadeDrinker said:
But is he holding up his side of the contract? There must surely be an implicit, if not explicit, expectation that, at the minimum, he makes maximum effort to be fit and committed. If he falls short for quality or on pitch decision making then there might not be much that he can do about that….but not to bother to get fit in the first instance? Surely actionable?

How would you measure that, though?

Body fat percentage? Blood oxygen levels? Instagram likes? Distance covered in training? Muscle mass?

Does it change based on the arbitrary values requested by each new coaching regime?

Do we use average values, and would that be world, league or club averages? What percentiles do we chose that players must be within?

Other lines of work are target-based and task based so beyond the usual discretionary errors or ethical transgressions there's an easy way way see if you're doing your job. In football, not so much because it's all subjective and relative.

I do think his behaviour would fall under the discretionary transgression but in terms of codification within contracts I don't see how you could fairly (or even legally) enforce this.

adamsky · Aug 24, 2021

Really not getting the idea that if we sign another wide forward we can have Son as our back up striker and don’t need to sign another striker. Last year we had Bale, Lamela & Vinicius and have replaced only with Gil so far. Even if we add Traore we still need a striker.

robotsonic · Aug 24, 2021

adamsky said:
Really not getting the idea that if we sign another wife forward we can have Son as our back up strikers don’t need to sign another striker. Last year we had Bale, Lamela & Vinicius and have replaced only with Gil so far. Even if we add Traore we still need a striker.

I also think that we need another striker, but I think we have to also bear in mind that we also have loan returnees that can play wide left to go along with Gil, whether we fancy them as it stands or not, but they're there and in the squad and are likely going to be relied upon to do a job.

-Afri-Coy- · Aug 24, 2021

For arguments sake, why would players at the elite level want to play for us?

We have no champions league football, we don’t have a strong squad to rely on like the other top 6 teams in the PL, we haven’t won a trophy in a decade and some, we always fail at the final hurdle. These are just a few of the problems players are looking at.

Kane’s lucrative contract, and Tanguy both signed around the same time and under completely different pretences. Not saying the club isn’t bigger than them, but their ambitions or reasons for signing certainly aren’t being matched.

As much as it pains me to say it, a world class stadium doesn’t qualify as a reason to play for Spurs. A big salary doesn’t qualify as a reason to play for Spurs, we barely pay £100k to most of our squad too. Nuno doesn’t qualify as a reason to play for Spurs.

If you take your Spurs tinted glasses off, you can kind of understand why certain players don’t want to be here anymore. We are facing a 2-3 year rebuild, with the HOPES that we make it back to our previous heights under Poch. The teams around us aren’t standing still so we can reach those heights either. Christ even Leicester have shown more ambition than us, and are achieving things long after their fairytale PL success.

At the same time you need to realise that some players don’t want to be around for the rebuild and we have to respect it. We will March on regardless.

spursfan77 · Aug 24, 2021

arunspurs said:
How is Tanguy update a shock/surprise to anybody ? He literally had a 1v1 (through translator) on Amazon documentary with Levy on the same subject. Since watching that never been in his corner. He has to go and we have to somehow save the 41m we still have to pay him as wages over next 4 years.
No other club will pay that much for him + fee especially knowing we are looking to move him on. Best hope is, we send him on loan to a established club and he miraculously has a good season and beef up his value, so we can move him in 2022

He’s got enough time on his contract to take that risk too.

YB123 · Aug 24, 2021

adamsky said:
Really not getting the idea that if we sign another wife forward we can have Son as our back up strikers don’t need to sign another striker. Last year we had Bale, Lamela & Vinicius and have replaced only with Gil so far. Even if we add Traore we still need a striker.

Exactly. "But Son will be back up to Kane". Yes but Son will also start every game.

-Afri-Coy- · Aug 24, 2021

arunspurs said:
How is Tanguy update a shock/surprise to anybody ? He literally had a 1v1 (through translator) on Amazon documentary with Levy on the same subject. Since watching that never been in his corner. He has to go and we have to somehow save the 41m we still have to pay him as wages over next 4 years.
No other club will pay that much for him + fee especially knowing we are looking to move him on. Best hope is, we send him on loan to a established club and he miraculously has a good season and beef up his value, so we can move him in 2022

Its pretty clear in that interview he wanted an arm put around him, and Levy basically pushed him into a corner and said figure it out lad you’re on your own, it’s all up to you.

Now I can understand that works for SOME people, it gives them a spark and they push forward. But it doesn’t work for everyone, I’m one of those people. Some people need the arm around the shoulder and the support of others.

wrd · Aug 24, 2021

-Afri-Coy- said:
For arguments sake, why would players at the elite level want to play for us?

We have no champions league football, we don’t have a strong squad to rely on like the other top 6 teams in the PL, we haven’t won a trophy in a decade and some, we always fail at the final hurdle. These are just a few of the problems players are looking at.

Kane’s lucrative contract, and Tanguy both signed around the same time and under completely different pretences. Not saying the club isn’t bigger than them, but their ambitions or reasons for signing certainly aren’t being matched.

As much as it pains me to say it, a world class stadium doesn’t qualify as a reason to play for Spurs. A big salary doesn’t qualify as a reason to play for Spurs, we barely pay £100k to most of our squad too. Nuno doesn’t qualify as a reason to play for Spurs.

If you take your Spurs tinted glasses off, you can kind of understand why certain players don’t want to be here anymore. We are facing a 2-3 year rebuild, with the HOPES that we make it back to our previous heights under Poch. The teams around us aren’t standing still so we can reach those heights either. Christ even Leicester have shown more ambition than us, and are achieving things long after their fairytale PL success.

At the same time you need to realise that some players don’t want to be around for the rebuild and we have to respect it. We will March on regardless.

Well that's tuesday ruined, cheers.

Dannyspur · Aug 24, 2021

keeole said:
Ndombele needs Harry Redknapp....... maybe Levy can ask him to pop in and put his arm around Tanguy.

He doesn't need an arm round him, he needs a bloody good kick up the arse!

-Afri-Coy- · Aug 24, 2021

wrd said:
Well that's tuesday ruined, cheers.

I used to be the eternal optimist but even I have to admit, from a players perspective, there’s not much to be excited about at Spurs.

Still love the club and want us to prove everyone wrong though for what it’s worth, and I think we’ll achieve something special with a younger, hungrier team with something to prove. Nuno seems special too.

spursfan77 · Aug 24, 2021

yidboy123 said:
Exactly. "But Son will be back up to Kane". Yes but Son will also start every game.

We’ll bring another striker in. Haven’t we always had a back up of some description? Janssen, Llorente, Vinicius, Lee Barnard (There may have been one season we didn’t?).

Dakes · Aug 24, 2021

haslemereyid said:
I suspect Tanguy falls into that category of footballer that doesnt really like football - his main motivations and ambitions have been to build a better life for himself and his family - now he has achieved that there is no ambition left

From what I recall, the Moose, who he replaced, was the same but he always put a good shift in regardless.

-Afri-Coy- · Aug 24, 2021

Dakes said:
From what I recall, the Moose, who he replaced, was the same but he always put a good shift in regardless.

I think Moose just enjoyed making other midfielders look stupid and he was bloody brilliant at it.

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The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 20th August 2021

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