Jose Mourinho

rez9000 · Feb 5, 2021

midoshairband said:
I said some of the players need to be replaced.

but most of the players are capable of playing better than they are under the current system/tactics.

But you want to hold primarily responsible Mourinho. So, if that's the case, who was responsible for the players playing precisely the same way before Mourinho arrived? Just out of interest. To see how you square it with what you said.

SuperSpurs69 · Feb 5, 2021

I'm not quite in the mourinho out camp yet, he at least gets until the end of the season. Unfortunately Poch was right about a painful rebuild and Jose has had to pick up the pieces. I know he was backed in the transfer window but really only PEH and reggie have been the best out the bunch.

There's a fair few players that need to be moved on for various reasons. Some are just plain shit, others aren't at the level we need and the rest are too inconsistent or injury prone.

It won't happen overnight but we really need to be looking to move on sissoko, Davies, winks, lamela, lucas, sanchez, Rose.

Jose can only work with the players available, yes we have a group of players who would definitely get into most top teams but the rest are holding us back.

Had Jose been in charge when we were battling Leicester or Chelsea for the title then we would have won 1 of them.

Johnny J · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
But you want to hold primarily responsible Mourinho. So, if that's the case, who was responsible for the players playing precisely the same way before Mourinho arrived? Just out of interest. To see how you square it with what you said.

I think we both know the answer to this, and it's the same guy who fitted your new shower.

fortworthspur · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
But you want to hold primarily responsible Mourinho. So, if that's the case, who was responsible for the players playing precisely the same way before Mourinho arrived? Just out of interest. To see how you square it with what you said.

so why did we fire Poch?

SpartanSpur · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
But half the issue is that they've, allegedly, been pissing and moaning about the style of play, prompting him to try and build bridges, undermining his own authority for a bunch of players one can only describe as utterly pathetic. So, they don't play when he gives them instruction and then they don't play properly when he, seemingly, gives them no instruction either.

What's he supposed to do? Instruct them or not?

He's supposed to develop some clear patterns of play for the build up and a more effective pressing system because frankly it has been exposed as non existent in recent weeks. Football has moved on.

Conte and Simeone are both defensive coaches but their teams have much more of an identity in how they play.

He definitely showed his coaching prowess in making us an effective counter attacking side for a spell but those parts of our game have been lacking throughout. As soon as confidence has dropped it's become obvious.

I see no point in letting him continue just because he's not fully culpable when he's unlikely to change his ways or get the 3 £50m players he probably needs to make his system work.

ZiggySpurs · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
Oh God, I don't want to talk about plumbing! I just had a new shower fitted (it's excellent, by they way - because I bought a top-of-the-line pump... as advised by the plumber).

Again, the argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny: There was every indication that he was using new methods. Again, why was it that suddenly, after the game at Anfield everything went sour? There was absolutely no indication that anything was wrong. Even at Anfield we played well.

I have no doubt that it was because we lost, in the dying seconds to those ****s again. And all the hard work, any improvement, any change of thinking was undone because of Monster Tooth's goal.

And that's on the players - for not having enough gumption to shake the loss off. No, they retreated back into their shell, felt sorry for themselves and that right there was the beginning of the end.

I feel like Liverpool have been our bogey team recently. Perhaps we're Man City's bogey team, but unlike us, when they lose their bogey derby they pick up form and go on a winning streak.

Congrats on the new shower.

spurs-r-us · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
But half the issue is that they've, allegedly, been pissing and moaning about the style of play, prompting him to try and build bridges, undermining his own authority for a bunch of players one can only describe as utterly pathetic. So, they don't play when he gives them instruction and then they don't play properly when he, seemingly, gives them no instruction either.

What's he supposed to do? Instruct them or not?

Because the style of play is fucking ridiculous in 2021. Its like driving a Ferrari on a dirt road.

Athenspur · Feb 5, 2021

Any result that brings us closer to the end of the Mourinho nightmare is a good result in the long run. No manager in the world would still be in a job after this series of horror shows.
My fear is that we somehow beat Manchester City and Mou becomes a hero, and stays. Then it's a relegation battle for the new season, because there are certainly not 3 teams worse than us in the league right now.
It has gotten to the point where the club's hunger for any kind of cup lifting (even the worthless Carabao) has become its own worst enemy.

midoshairband · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
But you want to hold primarily responsible Mourinho. So, if that's the case, who was responsible for the players playing precisely the same way before Mourinho arrived? Just out of interest. To see how you square it with what you said.

yes, Jose is primarily responsible for not getting the best of out the current players in his current system and tactics.

Pochettino’s side dropped off for a number of reasons, to name but a few: his resistance in the transfer market to players he deemed not good enough but have gone on to prove themselves more than good enough, his chamge of tactics to the diamond, not replacing dembele or walker adequately, poor spending of money on Sanchez, Janssen etc.

and then some of the players that have played under both are clearly not good enough and, as i said, need replacing - Winks, Dier, Davies, Sissoko, Sanchez to name a few.

fecka · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
But you want to hold primarily responsible Mourinho. So, if that's the case, who was responsible for the players playing precisely the same way before Mourinho arrived? Just out of interest. To see how you square it with what you said.

The question I would rather ask is, are they playing the same way because they are actually at fault as footballers or are they playing the same way because they are human beings?
I think it's likely that one of the reasons why we are where we are now is because we or the club don't have the definite answer to that question.

fortworthspur · Feb 5, 2021

when you make 15 million a year you dont get to blame the players. You just dont. If the players are crap we could pay a quarter of that for the same results.

fecka · Feb 5, 2021

fortworthspur said:
so why did we fire Poch?

One time is a coincidence, two might be a pattern?

midoshairband · Feb 5, 2021

fecka said:
The question I would rather ask is, are they playing the same way because they are actually at fault as footballers or are they playing the same way because they are human beings?
I think it's likely that one of the reasons why we are where we are now is because we or the club don't have the definite answer to that question.

my thought is that some are playing this way because they are very limited footballers. some are playing this way because they are terrified of making mistakes. some are playing this way because they are being instructed to.

rez9000 · Feb 5, 2021

SpartanSpur said:
You don't think Poch completely losing his head before and after the CL Final and then persisting with an ill judged complete change of gameplan to the infamous diamond that got brutally exposed didn't play a part in his demise?

I bloody love the guy and wish he was still here to be honest but his head went and it would have seeped down to the playing staff in a way.

That's what comes to mind as missed context when I see this common denominator stuff.

Yes we have some crap players in key positions that should have been moved on and replaced more effectively but most clubs in the league would swap squads with us given the choice. There's no excuse for being so completely limp as we have been for the last two months.

Granted I'm not expecting huge things out of the next management team if he does get sacked without serious changes at the top but I've completely lost faith in Mourinho turning this around. I genuinely think hes been show up as past his sell by date. It happens, he's still had a legendary career just sadly not at Spurs.

You'd be right, if it wasn't for the fact that we've been completely limp (outside of a small period) for nearly three years.

I think Poch inadvertently contributed to an issue that had already taken hold and for which the players themselves aren't actually responsible for bringing about, but which they do have the power to alter and mitigate.

I said it in the lack desire thread - all the blows to the confidence that they've taken has led them to have a brittle, fragile mentality. You then mix that with the general modern footballer's entitled attitude and that leads to a bunch of players who are not willing to put themselves on the line. There are exceptions - Kane being the most cogent example, but it's still widespread.

Look at the players that still show commitment, or at least some commitment on the pitch: PEH, Stevie B, Reggie. With the exception of Kane and maybe Sonny, all the others are heavily inclined to phone it in when their heads drop and they all belong to the pre-Mourinho cohort. The only ones who are pre-Mourinho but who don't have that propensity are Ndombele and Lo Celso. The players who came to the club after the CL loss and all the other semi-final and final losses that had gone before.

We have had a soft underbelly as a club for longer than that, but as we began turning it around, we then suffered body blow after body blow and it came back with a vengeance.

But there comes a time when you have to be professional. They are being paid lavish amounts to do not do very much work compared to some other professions. What's the old expression? 'A man who does what he loves for a living, never works a day in his life.' They are doing what they love for a living. They should, at the very least, understand that there are people who invest a lot of emotion in what they do and that, purely on a human level, not being entirely happy about the way you're being asked to do your job isn't enough of a reason to shirk the duties you're being paid to perform.

I don't believe that Mourinho can turn this around, but not because I think he is fundamentally incapable. I believe it's because these players don't want to change themselves, hence all the hoo-ha about the style of play.

I tell you what - you pay me £50, 100, or 200k a week and I'll do whatever job you want me to do exactly as you want me to. But that's not enough for some of our delicate little flowers apparently.

mark87 · Feb 5, 2021

If we lose to West Brom on Sunday that's gotta be it surely?

And with who is available and gettable (I'm thinking managers who aren't working) then I'd want Benitez.

rez9000 · Feb 5, 2021

fortworthspur said:
so why did we fire Poch?

Because they weren't going to listen to him whatever he did.

I think people are getting the wrong idea here. This is not me saying we should or shouldn't fire Mourinho. This is me stating my view that the principle reason for his sacking, should that happen, won't be him, but the players.

SpursSince1980 · Feb 5, 2021

thebenjamin said:
I have to say I love him as a bloke. The way he handles the media etc. He seems like a great guy. I just feel his entire footballing philosophy is wrong for Tottenham Hotspur.

That's funny. Cos I feel the entire mentality of just about every player we have is wrong for the club too.

No idea how is coaching is responsible for the umpteen mental mistakes we see defensively. Today was Dier's turn (again) to do something catastrophically dumb.

Oh, and I think I lost count after the 30th min of how many simple misplaced passes there were.

Let's also not forget all the players just standing around like statues. Refusing to budge. Move. Or try.

But if it makes everyone feel better to say it is all down to one person. Fine. You're right. The players have stopped making even the smallest effort.

Bring in the most attack minded genius in the land and let's see if they can turn these pathetic babies into men. 'Cos one thing I can also guarantee you is this... whoever your dream manager is will NOT be backed. They will have to deal with the exact same set of weak minded losers.

We're in deep, deep shit. And sacking Jose will not be a magical solution some seem to think it'll be. That's not to say he won't be going. 'Cos I can't see how he stays at this point, as the players have completely given up.

But by all means... let's give them a pass. It's all the manager's fault that they can't focus or put in any effort or pretend to give a shit. All because of Jose's philosophy, they can no longer make a 2 yard pass. Or mark someone. Or run into open space. Or do even the simplest of things, like not kick a fucking player in the leg while sitting on your arse in the penalty area. I'm sure that had everything to do with the Jose philosophy of playing.

Give me a break.

You'll get your wish. I don't doubt that. But what you won't get is someone who will turn us into anything resembling what we were 4 years ago. Not with these players. Not with this chairman. And not in this financial climate that will cripple us for the next three or four years.

ultimateloner · Feb 5, 2021

I've just watched Jose's post-match interview. He did state a couple of 'facts' = 1st half inferior to Chelsea BUT it's the pentaly that decided that half and the match, and that 2nd half we were better. He also said he saw 'togetherness' in the team.

He hasn't addressed (and no one dared ask) the obvious problems that most of us saw, which is we couldn't do anything when we have the ball. In a way he said he's trying various ways like Vinicius as target man etc..

Just not very convincing, given the scale of the problem we are seeing.

midoshairband · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
You'd be right, if it wasn't for the fact that we've been completely limp (outside of a small period) for nearly three years.

I think Poch inadvertently contributed to an issue that had already taken hold and for which the players themselves aren't actually responsible for bringing about, but which they do have the power to alter and mitigate.

I said it in the lack desire thread - all the blows to the confidence that they've taken has led them to have a brittle, fragile mentality. You then mix that with the general modern footballer's entitled attitude and that leads to a bunch of players who are not willing to put themselves on the line. There are exceptions - Kane being the most cogent example, but it's still widespread.

Look at the players that still show commitment, or at least some commitment on the pitch: PEH, Stevie B, Reggie. With the exception of Kane and maybe Sonny, all the others are heavily inclined to phone it in when their heads drop and they all belong to the pre-Mourinho cohort. The only ones who are pre-Mourinho but who don't have that propensity are Ndombele and Lo Celso. The players who came to the club after the CL loss and all the other semi-final and final losses that had gone before.

We have had a soft underbelly as a club for longer than that, but as we began turning it around, we then suffered body blow after body blow and it came back with a vengeance.

But there comes a time when you have to be professional. They are being paid lavish amounts to do not do very much work compared to some other professions. What's the old expression? 'A man who does what he loves for a living, never works a day in his life.' They are doing what they love for a living. They should, at the very least, understand that there are people who invest a lot of emotion in what they do and that, purely on a human level, not being entirely happy about the way you're being asked to do your job isn't enough of a reason to shirk the duties you're being paid to perform.

I don't believe that Mourinho can turn this around, but not because I think he is fundamentally incapable. I believe it's because these players don't want to change themselves, hence all the hoo-ha about the style of play.

I tell you what - you pay me £50, 100, or 200k a week and I'll do whatever job you want me to do exactly as you want me to. But that's not enough for some of our delicate little flowers apparently.

you’re 100% correct on the mentality of some of our players, and spot on with the ones you’ve highlighted above. the majority of the squad are so fragile, you can see it in th me way they play.

part of the piss poor mentality is the fear of mistakes that Jose has instilled - for some it will spur them on, bit for most of ours it they seem to shrink into themselves and try to take very little responsibility.

fortworthspur · Feb 5, 2021

rez9000 said:
Because they weren't going to listen to him whatever he did.

I think people are getting the wrong idea here. This is not me saying we should or shouldn't fire Mourinho. This is me stating my view that the principle reason for his sacking, should that happen, won't be him, but the players.

I couldnt disagree more. and Im not for sacking Mourinho either. But I disagree with the idea our players cant change or refuse to change or dont want to win as much as the next footballer. the buck stops with the coach.

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