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New Stadium Details And Discussions

JCRD

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2018
19,153
30,013
I like standing but I moved to the east stand from the park lane begrudgingly... But isn't the point that you're not allowed to stand? The point being made in telling someone who wants to sit to move is not the correct point to be making

It is not safe standing yet... Therefore you ought not to be standing.
 

Tiffers

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
574
1,577
The stewards are supposed to stop people sitting or standing on the steps. I went around to the marketplace once but it is way too crowded there and anyway were just a small group of drunks doing what they call singing rather adventurously singing how much they hate every football team they can think of of course using the f word repeatedly. Seems like a place to avoid
I was referring to the banks of steps in the market place which are specifically designed for fans to sit on and have their food and drink.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
There's a certain amount of bullshit being promoted by a small group of people here. The underlying fallacy is that they should have a "freedom to stand" at football matches. Until the rules are relaxed re safe-standing, that freedom doesn't exist.

More to the point, it isn't a "freedom" at all, except in the exact sense that President Trump wants to give employers the "freedom" to sack and exploit and underpay their employees, also the American gun owner who wants the "freedom" to keep the kind of firearm at home that is known to be associated with an increased incidence of domestic violence and murder, accidental shootings of family members and killings committed by intruders (often using the homeowner's own gun).

Perhaps the best example is the person (commonly known as "dickhead") who asserts their "freedom" to throw litter in the street, on the basis that there is always someone else who will clean up their shit.

The theme is obvious: it isn't a "freedom" to stand if it necessarily interferes with other people's experience of the match - it's better termed a "diabolical liberty".

Several people, most notably @Lighty64, have explained why the "well, go sit somewhere else" argument won't wash. But he hasn't gone far enough. There are disabled seats in the Park Lane end because disabled supporters have just as much right as chronic (selfish) standing fans to watch the match from inside the cauldron of the Park Lane end, if that's where they want to sit.

It isn't just about disabled fans, although I have a heightened sympathy for them at present, as I am temporarily (I hope) disabled as I recover from a very complex surgery. Even when I am able-bodied, I am 5'-6" and my wife is 4'-11". When something exciting happens, like a goal or a big chance or a bad foul, we jump up just like everyone else. But then we're mindful of the people around us, so we sit the fuck down again. Pronto.

If drunken bawling wankers in rows in front of us refuse to sit the fuck down when the moment of excitement is over, then we cannot see the action. We are having our "freedom" taken away because some twat won't do what 20 of us behind him are yelling for him to do and what the rules that we all agreed to dictate. Sit the fuck down.

It's not about "freedom to stand" - not until the rules change. It's about not being a selfish piece of shit and putting your own personal preference ahead of the needs of the group. We're all supporters. We're singing like you, we're chanting like you, we're part of the 12th man, cheering our players on.

People who want to keep standing through the match are basically saying "my rights as a supporter trump yours". Bollocks they do. Sit the fuck down.
 
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LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
13,456
39,042
There's a certain amount of bullshit being promoted by a small group of people here. The underlying fallacy is that they should have a "freedom to stand" at football matches. Until the rules are relaxed re safe-standing, that freedom doesn't exist.
Are you certain of this?

Or, more precisely, what do you mean by this? It is not illegal to stand at a football match. Every person admitted to the stadium must be assigned to a seat - but, I don't think the laws require people to remain seated during the match.

The club might make that requirement - but I don't believe (after just a cursory review of some of the laws) there is a legal requirement to sit.
 

tottenmal

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
801
2,082
Are people seriously suggesting that fans sat down make as much noise as those stood up? Maybe when a popular chant gets going, but fans sat down I’ve found are never the ones to start them. Or sustain a atmosphere long term like we had last night. Just look at old WHL. In the end most noise came from the group in Park lane lower and a small corner in the east stand lower, which other fans joined in on when it got loud enough. These fans knew they could get away with standing, as the away fans would and home fans knew generally to stay away from those areas if you want to sit all game.

But now we start fresh. The club obviously have to play it careful, as they want to encourage the old noisy side of the park lane lower to sing on a larger scale. More people, mixed with 1882 seats etc and you get different opinions on standing vs sitting etc.

The real problem is the moving of the away fans. How most fans can sit next to the away fans and behind the goal and just sit is beyond me, but the Paxton and north end of the east stand was never known for its standing or atmosphere, not in recent times anyway, so we are getting this uncomfortable mix of those sitting like they always have and others expecting to stand like the away fans next to them. I think it’ll even out eventually. But I think some slack will have to be given to those behind the goal.

And regarding UEFA rules and standing etc... I know this stadium is under a lot of scrutiny, but you never see the white shirts at Madrid sat down in the champions league, or those at Bayern, or Dortmund etc. Even though Dortmund’s yellow wall is reduced to seated mode. So obviously while it is the rule, the new WHL is by no means the exception.
 

Saoirse

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
6,143
15,550
There's a certain amount of bullshit being promoted by a small group of people here. The underlying fallacy is that they should have a "freedom to stand" at football matches. Until the rules are relaxed re safe-standing, that freedom doesn't exist.

More to the point, it isn't a "freedom" at all, except in the exact sense that President Trump wants to give employer the "freedom" to sack and exploit and underpay their employees, also the American gun owner who wants the "freedom" to keep the kind of firearm at home that is known to be associated with an increased incidence of domestic violence and murder, accidental shootings of family members and killings committed by intruders (often using the homeowner's own gun).

Perhaps the best example is the person (commonly known as "dickhead") who asserts their "freedom" to throw litter in the street, on the basis that there is always someone else who will clean up their shit.

The theme is obvious: it isn't a "freedom" to stand if it necessarily interferes with other people's experience of the match - it's better termed a "diabolical liberty".

Several people, most notably @Lighty64, have explained why the "well, go sit somewhere else" argument won't wash. But he hasn't gone far enough. There are disabled seats in the Park Lane end because disabled supporters have just as much right as chronic (selfish) standing fans to watch the match from inside the cauldron of the Park Lane end, if that's where they want to sit.

It isn't just about disabled fans, although I have a heightened sympathy for them at present, as I am temporarily (I hope) disabled as I recover from a very complex surgery. Even when I am able-bodied, I am 5'-6" and my wife is 4'-11". When something exciting happens, like a goal or a big chance or a bad foul, we jump up just like everyone else. But then we're mindful of the people around us, so we sit the fuck down again. Pronto.

If drunken bawling wankers in rows in front of us refuse to sit the fuck down when the moment of excitement is over, then we cannot see the action. We are having our "freedom" taken away because some twat won't do what 20 of us behind him are yelling for him to do and what the rules that we all agreed to dictate. Sit the fuck down.

It's not about "freedom to stand" - not until the rules change. It's about not being a selfish piece of shit and putting your own personal preference ahead of the needs of the group. We're all supporters. We're singing like you, we're chanting like you, we're part of the 12th man, cheering our players on.

People who want to keep standing through the match are basically saying "my rights as a supporter trump yours". Bollocks they do. Sit the fuck down.

Literally your only argument is "it's against the rules", which isn't a very good justification for why it shouldn't be allowed. If those rules were gone, it would be exceedingly simple to have sections of the ground for people who want or need to sit, and sections for people who want or need to stand. I really don't see the argument against that solution, so my focus would be much more on the muppet collection who made such rules despite in many cases having never attended a football match outside a corporate box rather than the fans stuck with it trying to enjoy the game in the way they always have.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Are you certain of this?

Or, more precisely, what do you mean by this? It is not illegal to stand at a football match. Every person admitted to the stadium must be assigned to a seat - but, I don't think the laws require people to remain seated during the match.

The club might make that requirement - but I don't believe (after just a cursory review of some of the laws) there is a legal requirement to sit.
Having read the thread and some links, I painstakingly said nothing about the law or illegality. It's against the rules of the club. The law doesn't even figure. You can be thrown out or banned because entry to matches is conditional upon accepting the terms and conditions and the standards of behaviour, which form a contractually binding agreement between THFC and the ticket-buyer. That includes not standing through the match.

Have a re-read and tell me where I referred to illegality.

It's INCONSIDERATE and it's SELFISH. As well as being against the rules.
 

DCSPUR

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2005
3,918
5,415
There's a certain amount of bullshit being promoted by a small group of people here. The underlying fallacy is that they should have a "freedom to stand" at football matches. Until the rules are relaxed re safe-standing, that freedom doesn't exist.

More to the point, it isn't a "freedom" at all, except in the exact sense that President Trump wants to give employers the "freedom" to sack and exploit and underpay their employees, also the American gun owner who wants the "freedom" to keep the kind of firearm at home that is known to be associated with an increased incidence of domestic violence and murder, accidental shootings of family members and killings committed by intruders (often using the homeowner's own gun).

Perhaps the best example is the person (commonly known as "dickhead") who asserts their "freedom" to throw litter in the street, on the basis that there is always someone else who will clean up their shit.

The theme is obvious: it isn't a "freedom" to stand if it necessarily interferes with other people's experience of the match - it's better termed a "diabolical liberty".

Several people, most notably @Lighty64, have explained why the "well, go sit somewhere else" argument won't wash. But he hasn't gone far enough. There are disabled seats in the Park Lane end because disabled supporters have just as much right as chronic (selfish) standing fans to watch the match from inside the cauldron of the Park Lane end, if that's where they want to sit.

It isn't just about disabled fans, although I have a heightened sympathy for them at present, as I am temporarily (I hope) disabled as I recover from a very complex surgery. Even when I am able-bodied, I am 5'-6" and my wife is 4'-11". When something exciting happens, like a goal or a big chance or a bad foul, we jump up just like everyone else. But then we're mindful of the people around us, so we sit the fuck down again. Pronto.

If drunken bawling wankers in rows in front of us refuse to sit the fuck down when the moment of excitement is over, then we cannot see the action. We are having our "freedom" taken away because some twat won't do what 20 of us behind him are yelling for him to do and what the rules that we all agreed to dictate. Sit the fuck down.

It's not about "freedom to stand" - not until the rules change. It's about not being a selfish piece of shit and putting your own personal preference ahead of the needs of the group. We're all supporters. We're singing like you, we're chanting like you, we're part of the 12th man, cheering our players on.

People who want to keep standing through the match are basically saying "my rights as a supporter trump yours". Bollocks they do. Sit the fuck down.
Agree and have to note that this is a high quality rant David ;-)
 

LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
13,456
39,042
Having read the thread and some links, I painstakingly said nothing about the law or illegality. It's against the rules of the club. The law doesn't even figure. You can be thrown out or banned because entry to matches is conditional upon accepting the terms and conditions and the standards of behaviour, which form a contractually binding agreement between THFC and the ticket-buyer. That includes not standing through the match.

Have a re-read and tell me where I referred to illegality.

It's INCONSIDERATE and it's SELFISH. As well as being against the rules.

I never said you did refer to illegality - which, if you read my post, you would see where I specifically asked what you meant...
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Are people seriously suggesting that fans sat down make as much noise as those stood up?

Yes. For instance, I'm a former professional singer with a tenor that can be heard over any random selection of 25 nearby fans. I can do that sitting down just as easily as I can standing.

I'm on the Shelf. We generally sit. We also generally hold our own quite effortlessly, when the Park Lane/Shelf-side chants start up.

If you can't sing with volume and projection sitting down, you need some Alexander Technique lessons ;).

Maybe when a popular chant gets going, but fans sat down I’ve found are never the ones to start them. Or sustain a atmosphere long term like we had last night. Just look at old WHL. In the end most noise came from the group in Park lane lower and a small corner in the east stand lower, which other fans joined in on when it got loud enough. These fans knew they could get away with standing, as the away fans would and home fans knew generally to stay away from those areas if you want to sit all game.

We started at least 6 chants last night. The Dele song, the Moussa song, two instances of "Oh, when the Spurs", to my direct recollection. People have to get used to the improved acoustics in the new stadium. Because of the controlled reverberation times, any area can start a chant and we can all hear it clearly enough to join in without drifting out of time - which is what used to kill the chants at Wembley.

Even the Paxton was chanting "we're the Paxton..." last night!

The real problem is the moving of the away fans. How most fans can sit next to the away fans and behind the goal and just sit is beyond me, but the Paxton and north end of the east stand was never known for its standing or atmosphere, not in recent times anyway, so we are getting this uncomfortable mix of those sitting like they always have and others expecting to stand like the away fans next to them. I think it’ll even out eventually. But I think some slack will have to be given to those behind the goal.

It was more of a pain in the arse against Palace, because they brought a drummer. We used to be down the Park Lane end of the East Upper, but I couldn't get decent affordable seats there, so now we're in block 523, at the northern end of the East Upper. You do hear them, but they're nagging and relentless, rather than noisy. They're easily overpowered.
 
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davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Literally your only argument is "it's against the rules", which isn't a very good justification for why it shouldn't be allowed.

My argument, literal or figurative, was about selfishness and inconsiderate behaviour. Not about the rules. It's really difficult to see how you can read my post and see it as focused on the club's rules. The whole post is basically about false notions of "freedom" that are used as an excuse to deprive other people of their rights.
 

Saoirse

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
6,143
15,550
My argument, literal or figurative, was about selfishness and inconsiderate behaviour. Not about the rules. It's really difficult to see how you can read my post and see it as focused on the club's rules. The whole post is basically about false notions of "freedom" that are used as an excuse to deprive other people of their rights.
Some people need or want to enjoy games sitting down. Some need or want to enjoy them standing up. Just put the two groups in different places. It doesn't need to be so complicated.
 

mickdale

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2016
1,069
1,409
People who want to keep standing through the match are basically saying "my rights as a supporter trump yours". Bollocks they do. Sit the fuck down.
No we were arguing large numbers want to stand, we’ve gone to the south stand where we are trying to create an atmosphere and be with likeminded supporters who also want to stand.
And you’re complaining about intolerance.... jeez
 

SirHarryHotspur

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
5,005
7,422
If everyone in the south stand does stand then that basically excludes kids or anyone of very short stature from using that stand. Always a problem in the standing terrace era , you're 5ft 8in been standing there waiting for kick off for an hour got a good place then someone 6ft 2in comes and stands right in front of you.

For those that worry about such things from other fans there will be more accusations that we can't fill the ground as looking like a sub 59000 crowd for Huddersfield , sure those Hammers will be saying we get more than that and your supposed to have a luxury stadium.
 
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yid1o

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2007
387
579
There's a certain amount of bullshit being promoted by a small group of people here. The underlying fallacy is that they should have a "freedom to stand" at football matches. Until the rules are relaxed re safe-standing, that freedom doesn't exist.

More to the point, it isn't a "freedom" at all, except in the exact sense that President Trump wants to give employers the "freedom" to sack and exploit and underpay their employees, also the American gun owner who wants the "freedom" to keep the kind of firearm at home that is known to be associated with an increased incidence of domestic violence and murder, accidental shootings of family members and killings committed by intruders (often using the homeowner's own gun).

Perhaps the best example is the person (commonly known as "dickhead") who asserts their "freedom" to throw litter in the street, on the basis that there is always someone else who will clean up their shit.

The theme is obvious: it isn't a "freedom" to stand if it necessarily interferes with other people's experience of the match - it's better termed a "diabolical liberty".

Several people, most notably @Lighty64, have explained why the "well, go sit somewhere else" argument won't wash. But he hasn't gone far enough. There are disabled seats in the Park Lane end because disabled supporters have just as much right as chronic (selfish) standing fans to watch the match from inside the cauldron of the Park Lane end, if that's where they want to sit.

It isn't just about disabled fans, although I have a heightened sympathy for them at present, as I am temporarily (I hope) disabled as I recover from a very complex surgery. Even when I am able-bodied, I am 5'-6" and my wife is 4'-11". When something exciting happens, like a goal or a big chance or a bad foul, we jump up just like everyone else. But then we're mindful of the people around us, so we sit the fuck down again. Pronto.

If drunken bawling wankers in rows in front of us refuse to sit the fuck down when the moment of excitement is over, then we cannot see the action. We are having our "freedom" taken away because some twat won't do what 20 of us behind him are yelling for him to do and what the rules that we all agreed to dictate. Sit the fuck down.

It's not about "freedom to stand" - not until the rules change. It's about not being a selfish piece of shit and putting your own personal preference ahead of the needs of the group. We're all supporters. We're singing like you, we're chanting like you, we're part of the 12th man, cheering our players on.

People who want to keep standing through the match are basically saying "my rights as a supporter trump yours". Bollocks they do. Sit the fuck down.
These disabled seats have been positioned so that when the people in front stand, the disabled seats can still see. It was always part of the safe standing thing when it was designed.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
Seems to me they knew what the issue could be from the start - not enough light.
That's why they had the banks of artificial lights built in, but maybe it is not enough.

After the summer, perhaps the root systems will be charged up enough to last through the next season, or alternatively they strip it all away and go with a different mix.

Seems certain though that the pitch would not currently take kindly to be stuck in the carpark for a few weeks over a summer or even a few days for the NFL games.


The pitch will certainly be a challenge for Darren. The enclosed nature of the stadium doesn’t help and neither will rolling it in and out. Unfortunately that’s why the emirates is a carpet the light and air it gets. It’s all a trade off and hopefully it will be fine.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,894
45,042
The irony is that standing is safer now simply because we all have a seat. In the old days there were rushes a few times every game when the crowd gave and everyone fell or flowed down the terrace yet in all the standing that has gone on since all seating not a one, I've seen people go over the seat in front of them but that's where it stops. Hopefully we get the chance to have safe standing and when they declare it perfectly safe it can be expanded to more areas to accommodate the numbers wanting to stand then this division will be a thing of the past.
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
No we were arguing large numbers want to stand, we’ve gone to the south stand where we are trying to create an atmosphere and be with likeminded supporters who also want to stand.
And you’re complaining about intolerance.... jeez

Yeah, but I think the problem seems to be persistent standing is not just confined to South Stand supporters. It’s going on in pockets all over the stadium.

I didn’t get a ticket in the South because I don’t want to stand the whole game ( I’ve done and enjoyed the terraces when I was younger, but it’s not for me anymore - and even if it was my Dad couldn’t hack it). Even though it’s not really allowed there is an implied knowledge that that’s where it will be tolerated.

That’s where it should end imo. There is a whole 17,500 stand for this. At least 3-5k of which is ready for safe standing. It seems that’s not quite enough for some who demand the right to do it in other parts of the stadium. Sorry, but if you want to stand go in the Park Lane. Otherwise, sit down.
 

topper

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2008
3,806
16,254
If everyone in the south stand does stand then that basically excludes kids or anyone of very short stature from using that stand. Always a problem in the standing terrace era , you're 5ft 8in been standing there waiting for kick off for an hour got a good place then someone 6ft 2in comes and stands right in front of you.

For those that worry about such things from other fans there will be more accusations that we can't fill the ground as looking like a sub 59000 crowd for Huddersfield , sure those Hammers will be saying we get more than that and your supposed to have a luxury stadium.
Spam certainly do not get anywhere near 59k at their matches - they do count all their £5 tickets which they have sold but I doubt they get more than 45k turn up for most games
 
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