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Player Watch Player Watch - Lucas Moura

MelbYid

Active Member
Jun 8, 2018
44
203
How many when voting for a political party or leader do so because they agree wholeheartedly with every single view of the leader or the party? I'd wager it's a pretty small minority.
im sure he doesn't agree with all that at all - but he is endorsing the man who has said those things and who would pose a serious danger to a lot of innocent Brazilian's rights were he elected. Just saying hes a 'different' candidate doesnt excuse it - Lucas could vouch for justice/policing changes, fighting corruption, and renewing democracy independantly - but he has chosen to endorse someone who wants to rip the civil rights of millions of people away
 

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
I doubt very much that the guy who was tweet quoted earlier knows much about Brazilian politics, given that all he's done is screenshot the guys wikipedia. And Wikipedia isn't exactly the must trustworthy of sources. Lucas also hasn't said he backs all of this guy's policies.

The extent to which people want to polarise political opinions is ridiculous right now. It's harmful and dangerous. The new left position themselves as liberal and open minded yet as soon as someone says anything that flies even a little in the face of what they believe they want to shut down all discussion. Free speech as long as you say what we say.It's really unhealthy, and dangerous.
I'll preface this by saying that while I'm not a fan of Lucas being a fascist sympathizer, I accept his right to hold a political view, no matter how misguided I think said view is.

But this post is absolute garbage. Just because something is said under the guise of free speech doesn't mean, and should never mean, that this speech is immediately free from criticism.

Criticising Lucas for supporting a fascist is not limiting his free speech. His free speech allowed him to say it. But having free speech also means you have to accept whatever criticism and argument comes your way and be held accountable (ie. the free speech of people who disagree with what you're saying).
 

TheHoddleWaddle

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2013
11,289
20,289
im sure he doesn't agree with all that at all - but he is endorsing the man who has said those things and who would pose a serious danger to a lot of innocent Brazilian's rights were he elected. Just saying hes a 'different' candidate doesnt excuse it - Lucas could vouch for justice/policing changes, fighting corruption, and renewing democracy independantly - but he has chosen to endorse someone who wants to rip the civil rights of millions of people away

No. He hasn't. He s pointed out a couple.of differences in the policy. E.g. Crime, which is way way out of hand and unless you live there or know any Brazillians, you won't understand just how horrendous it is. Etc.

It surprises me that people buy into reading the rags and using their own terms, I.e. endorses / supports. Where did he say that he wants Bolosonaro to be the head honcho? Where does it say he supports the victimisation of refugees etc etc. He doesn't.

It's a wider debate than just Moura and the thread has the likelihood of total derailment, but, it's still ok to agree with some policies of a person even if you don't like the whole.

Onions i suppose, but the power of the press should never be underestimated I how It can make folk view someone. Objectivity and context gets lost as I think it has here. (In general, not digging at you @MelbYid )
 
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glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
Freedom of speech is freedom from the state not freedom to just say anything with no repercussions at all. If a company feels your speech negatively impacts them they aren’t compelled to continue paying you money, otherwise their freedom would be compromised, there will be something in the contract.
The correlation between those who are absolute in their belief of free market capitalism and those who don't understand this point whatsoever always astounds me.

On the one hand they're free to do and behave in whatever manner they want, but on the other they're PC gone mad if they fire employees who hurt their brand. It's fucking bizarre.
 
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guiltyparty

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2005
9,023
13,524
I mean it’s literally the most liberal thing possible to oppose the promotion of fascism...

If he’d said Lucas should be arrested then you’d have a point, but otherwise I think you lack an understanding of what liberalism is.

That isn’t what liberal means. The most liberal thing to do is to be open to new ideas, think people should be free to express themselves and to be open for your opinion being changed.

There’s absolutely nothing liberal about demonising Moura that’s for sure
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,904
78,639
im sure he doesn't agree with all that at all - but he is endorsing the man who has said those things and who would pose a serious danger to a lot of innocent Brazilian's rights were he elected. Just saying hes a 'different' candidate doesnt excuse it - Lucas could vouch for justice/policing changes, fighting corruption, and renewing democracy independantly - but he has chosen to endorse someone who wants to rip the civil rights of millions of people away
Good luck finding someone or a party in Brazil that vouches for or applies these important factors. The fight against corruption is a lost cause, that's why they are desperate for dramatic change.
 

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
Good luck finding someone or a party in Brazil that vouches for or applies these important factors. The fight against corruption is a lost cause, that's why they are desperate for dramatic change.
Because this is a nuanced, complex discussion, do you care to elaborate on why you disagree with that post above? Do you really think that free speech means everyone should be free from being criticised for said speech?
 

LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
13,456
39,042
So, I just saw an article on the Brazilian election - Bolsonaro's chief opponent is currently in prison serving a 12-year sentence for corruption and money laundering. Brazilian Supreme Court has ruled he can no longer run in the campaign.


I wonder how many of you who are opposed to Bolsonaro's politics would be supporting the guy convicted of corruption?

Sometimes, life does not give us easy choices...
 

pffft

some kind of member
Jul 19, 2013
1,527
5,540
If I had a choice of Hitler or Lenin I would choose Lenin as the lesser of two evils.

This would not make me a communist.


In early 1950s America that comment would have got you put straight on McCarthy's list.

Because you're evidently a "dirty commie".

(I don't have any knowledge of Brazilian politics so am not going to join the discussion, but have decided that since you're making sensible comments it's better to persecute you instead. That's how this political lark works isn't it?)
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,985
81,903
In early 1950s America that comment would have got you put straight on McCarthy's list.

Because you're evidently a "dirty commie".

(I don't have any knowledge of Brazilian politics so am not going to join the discussion, but have decided that since you're making sensible comments it's better to persecute you instead. That's how this political lark works isn't it?)
I’m a dirty commie because I’m a dirty commie not because of my comments.
 

pffft

some kind of member
Jul 19, 2013
1,527
5,540
I’m a dirty commie because I’m a dirty commie not because of my comments.

You're far too dangerous for continued low-level persecution. Would you please put on this blindfold, and would you like a last cigarette?
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
his views aren't just 'different' though - he's endorsing someone who believes women shouldnt get equal pay, brazilian descendants of slaves "arent fit for breeding", publicly supported a brazilian neo-nazi called Marco Antonio, called refugees "scum of the earth", repeatedly commends the Brazilian military dictatorship and its use of torture, said he would rather his son die than be gay, said gay parents use their kids as sex slaves, and in the 80s planned to bomb a crucial water pipeline in Rio to starve the people out of bringing on democratic reforms. Lucas endorsing this guy to hundreds of thousands of followers isn't just a regular difference in opinion, its endorsing an authoritarian and bigoted would-be terrorist for office - that's not something we should just ok because hes a good player imo

He's not endorsed anyone.

He's simply said that the presidential candidate in question has a different approach to crime and doesn't give the same bullshit as the other politicians.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
I mean it’s literally the most liberal thing possible to oppose the promotion of fascism...

If he’d said Lucas should be arrested then you’d have a point, but otherwise I think you lack an understanding of what liberalism is.

I don't agree.

The most liberal thing possible is to accept the freedom of speech of others who may hold those views even when they conflict with your own.
 

Streetspur77

Happy Clapper
Jul 20, 2017
2,792
9,404
That isn’t what liberal means. The most liberal thing to do is to be open to new ideas, think people should be free to express themselves and to be open for your opinion being changed.

There’s absolutely nothing liberal about demonising Moura that’s for sure

Lucas is completely free to express himself. Has he been arrested for what he said? Has anyone in this thread said he should be arrested?

Liberalism and freedom of speech is only in relation to punishment from the state, it doesn’t mean you can say anything and people can’t respond negatively.

Also what part of fascism is a “new idea”?
 

ilikeost

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2012
5,382
12,072
So you now actively want the club to sell a player because of his political views?
Yes, if a player has a one or a few specific views that I find abhorrent and is using his platform to promote them. If a player is openly pro-fascist, sexist, homophobe, racist and/or thinks the Star Wars prequels are good movies I want them gone.

If so, that deffo sounds completely fair and liberal.

I'm not a liberal so that's fine.
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,904
78,639
Because this is a nuanced, complex discussion, do you care to elaborate on why you disagree with that post above? Do you really think that free speech means everyone should be free from being criticised for said speech?
Sure, I'm not disagreeing with what you necessarily say about free speech more with the verdict that Lucas is a fascist sympathiser. He's not and I wish people would take the time to actually consider what he is actually saying (lots of people seem to understand Brazilian Portuguese all of a sudden) - he simply wants a safer and less crime-ridden country and knows that the options available are severely limited.

By the way - in Brazilian media they aren't even referring to Bolsonaro as a fascist. Therefore, if Lucas is relying on the Brazilian news to form his opinions and the message that resonates with him is "I will enforce zero tolerance on crime" because of his life experiences and the country's rotten climate, then who are we to judge him and rip him to shreds?!

People need to have a bit of consideration for the ENTIRE picture before judging him and claiming that he is racist, sexist and homophobic. Considering that he hasn't made any comments on these things, and simply honed in on the crime aspect I'd take a pretty big wager on him not being any of these things. But this is the internet, we jump to conclusions about what people are and what they say instead of asking a bit of time and research to understand where it has come from and what is truly being said.

Until he displays any of these vile characteristics he will have my entire support whilst at the club, especially considering what I've been told (very humble and respectful person) about him by someone who knows him.
 
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