Opinion of AVB in hindsight?

Shadydan · Mar 21, 2017

Mullers said:
Not laughable at all, maybe laughable to Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, city and Utd fans.

Avb is one of two managers to take us to the quarter final stage since we've been back qualifying regularly for Europe. It certainly is an achievement for us whether you want to admit it or not.
I mean if you carry that attitude towards our 5th place finishes, our third place finish, our two fourth places and the league cup win. Then there isn't much left in the way of achievement in the PL era.

It's laughable to dress it up as an achievement which is what you're doing, getting to the quarter final of the EL isn't an achievement for a team who should be doing far better in that competition, failure is not an achievement no matter how much you try and argue the toss and look for a strawman.

allpaths · Mar 21, 2017

kaz Hirai said:
Sorry but that's such rubbish that often gets churned out and it's a massive discredit to the rest of the team.

And i kinda hate that narrative that it was a one man team, massive rose tints based on a 4 or 5 games were Bale scored the winner. Such a discredit to everyone else who worked hard that season
Was Gareth playing in defence? did he also play in goal? Did he assist his own goals? Did he score all our goals or assist everyone else's

Here's the facts

Goals
Bale 26

Defoe 15
Dempsey 12
Ade 8
Gilfi 7
Lennon 4
Andros 1

So our other forward players contributed far more goals combined in bales final season.

Assists
Bale 10
Lennon 8
Gilfi 6
Clint 6

As you can see Bale obviously was our star player but there was a broad contribution from all our attacking players.
Suppose Poch's number 1 tactic is give it to Kane

We're still a one man team

You're misrepresenting the stats, you are using stats from all competitions, when people say we played like shit and were a one man team, I think it mostly is meant by our performances in the league, which were pathetic. But I would agree we weren't a one man team because vertonghen was pretty amazing that season.
Avb wasn't the worse, but he wasn't good for the club either, I don't hate him, I just don't have any respect for him when it comes to football.

Mullers · Mar 21, 2017

Shadydan said:
It's laughable to dress it up as an achievement which is what you're doing, getting to the quarter final of the EL isn't an achievement for a team who should be doing far better in that competition, failure is not an achievement no matter how much you try and argue the toss and look for a strawman.

Then apart from our one trophy in 17 years where the manager got sacked we have failed consistentantly in the premier league era.

allpaths · Mar 21, 2017

simyid said:
ye you must have really hated that 3-2 win at old trafford. oh and that 3-1 win against man city, that one was just awful. beating West ham 3-1 at home? no enjoyment out of that one what so ever. our last league win against liverpool? hated that one the most.

U watch the second half of the United game, we played like some limited relegation fodder that was holding onto dear life. It was awesome to win, but that game alone almost gave me an ulcer. I don't get much joy over beating west ham, unless it was in spectacular fashion. If not there just like any other mid table side. Liverpool was a scrappy 2-1 not a performance a real dominance. Man city would make it three games of enjoyment, so I guess that's a big difference.
Let me ask u this, did you like losing to chelsea 2-4 at the lane, the 2nd 5-2 arsenal result, the multiple beatings we took from pool and city? I'm not one to judge but by all accounts if you enjoyed avbs time good for you, but to me it will be mostly remembered for embarrassing results, boring football, and bale having the best individual season I've ever seen from a spurs player.

simyid · Mar 21, 2017

Mullers said:
Then apart from our one trophy in 17 years where the manager got sacked we have failed consistentantly in the premier league era.

i think it is pretty hard to argue that we haven't

simyid · Mar 21, 2017

allpaths said:
U watch the second half of the United game, we played like some limited relegation fodder that was holding onto dear life. It was awesome to win, but that game alone almost gave me an ulcer. I don't get much joy over beating west ham, unless it was in spectacular fashion. If not there just like any other mid table side. Liverpool was a scrappy 2-1 not a performance a real dominance. Man city would make it three games of enjoyment, so I guess that's a big difference.
Let me ask u this, did you like losing to chelsea 2-4 at the lane, the 2nd 5-2 arsenal result, the multiple beatings we took from pool and city? I'm not one to judge but by all accounts if you enjoyed avbs time good for you, but to me it will be mostly remembered for embarrassing results, boring football, and bale having the best individual season I've ever seen from a spurs player.

well i never said that i enjoyed AVB's time especially but i was making the point that there were some good times under him, even if in his 2nd season we were atrocious. i can do the same thing with Poch, have you enjoyed his time here? well did you enjoy getting battered by man city 4-1? or chelsea 3-0? or newcastle doing the double over us while getting relegated? or liverpool beating us 3-0 at home? or getting battered 3-0 by stoke? yet i can acknowledge Poch has done a great job and i am enjoying what he is doing, so it is not as simple as you put it.

whitesocks · Mar 21, 2017

He introduced the high line which we still have today.
It is less suicidal now, but that is partly because we have a manager who knows how to implement it properly.

He introduced the idea of the CBs splitting and the defensive midfielder slotting in between them. It was hopeless and usually the ball would just go back to the goalie to punt it. But last season with Dier dropping back we passed our way out of any press and now we usually play 3 at the back which is closely related.

He introduced the 1 striker plus 1 backup idea. Redknapp used to have a bench full of seasoned strikers and kept throwing them on until we scored. AVB was happy with Adebayor and the then unknown Kane. Today we have Kane and Janssen, and no-one seems to mind too much when we play with no strikers.

Having just 1 striker in the box numbered the days of our wingers - there was no longer any point flying down the wing and crossing. The club had a long tradition of exciting wing play, but if they couldn't score, they were now surplus.
Today nearly all width is provided by the full backs.

(Also he did away with the long tradition of having an ex-player as an assistant. There may have been other innovations behind the scenes.)

He may have been bad at implementing the ideas and I'm not sure he understood them at all, but like it or not, they are how the modern game is often played today.

TottenhamMattSpur · Mar 21, 2017

Mullers said:
Ha.
The last time we were in Europe's top competition before Redknapp got us there was 1962. It maybe a second rate achievement for a club like man utd but not for us, the Europa cup has been our level like it or not. I mean before Jol we weren't even qualifying for that competition. This year were knocked out by those footballing giants Genk. So to me until we prove otherwise the Europa cup is our level.

I don't think the players got burnt out, they got 72 points Tbh I was not expecting us to do so well after losing Modric and VDV.

It's the 1/4 final.
He got there above others because he tried and he still ONLY got to the 1/4 final, only to lose to some shit from Switzerland.

It's embarrassing!

ljinko888 · Mar 21, 2017

I like AVB. I think he has good attention to detail and determination to succeed - perhaps took it too far that it affected his performance as manager.

Every poor performance seemed to jag away at him [even when we won the games] and every bad result seemed to cause him to have to justify his job. Actually that's not a criticism - that's tremendous work ethic and desire to get better. AVB's problem was the snobbery towards him by the media and maybe his own players [certainly at Chelsea] that he wasn't big enough as a manager to get the jobs he did at such a young age and he didn't have a professional playing career to buy him some respect. That's why he tried to phase out the old guard at Chelsea. He went from being an opposition scout to their boss in a short time and....we all know how it turned out.

Then media narratives like "anyone can win trophies with Porto" - utter nonsense.

AVB doesn't have the swagger and media charm of Mourinho but he was a good coach who deserved better appreciation and still has plenty of time to prove them all wrong. When you see tried and tested failures like Moyes, McClaren, Pardew etc keep getting jobs and good press something is wrong.

ItsBoris · Mar 21, 2017

whitesocks said:
He introduced the high line which we still have today.
It is less suicidal now, but that is partly because we have a manager who knows how to implement it properly.

He introduced the idea of the CBs splitting and the defensive midfielder slotting in between them. It was hopeless and usually the ball would just go back to the goalie to punt it. But last season with Dier dropping back we passed our way out of any press and now we usually play 3 at the back which is closely related.

He introduced the 1 striker plus 1 backup idea. Redknapp used to have a bench full of seasoned strikers and kept throwing them on until we scored. AVB was happy with Adebayor and the then unknown Kane. Today we have Kane and Janssen, and no-one seems to mind too much when we play with no strikers.

Having just 1 striker in the box numbered the days of our wingers - there was no longer any point flying down the wing and crossing. The club had a long tradition of exciting wing play, but if they couldn't score, they were now surplus.
Today nearly all width is provided by the full backs.

(Also he did away with the long tradition of having an ex-player as an assistant. There may have been other innovations behind the scenes.)

He may have been bad at implementing the ideas and I'm not sure he understood them at all, but like it or not, they are how the modern game is often played today.

It's not like he introduced these ideas and then Poch picked up on them and improved them. Poch was already doing this at Southampton while AVB was here.

My opinion that AVB is awful hasn't changed. It was pretty obvious when he was at Chelsea and then even more so here.

southlondonyiddo · Mar 21, 2017

My thoughts on the AVB era which I can barely remember now

Pretty boring and tedious for the most part

Most vivid memory of his time here was how he used to crouch on the touchline!

knowlespurs · Mar 21, 2017

pretty poor football
average league positions
zero cup runs
and he had one of our greatest ever players who kept smashing screamers in from 30 yards, and we still won nothing and finished 5th

jonathanhotspur · Mar 21, 2017

A dick.

Kiedis · Mar 21, 2017

I have no time for a manager that loses 5-2 at the Emirates and generally made us look completely clueless when plan A wasn't working or individual players didn't bail us out. Wait, that was Redknapp...

Positive AVB memories/thingies:
* Winning 3-2 at Old Trafford against a Ferguson side.
* Late winning goals and equalisers (after he adjusted training methods after we had been shipping late goals)
* Coming back from being a goal down to win or lose 15 times.
* Setting up a balanced side that allowed Bale to do his thing.
* Him recognising that BAE and Ade had to go.
* The AVB chant to the tune of "let it be"
* Turning the game against City at home after him getting the better of Mancini tactically.
* Winning 2-1 against Arsenal with Dawson ripping Clattenburg a new arsehole.
* The Dembele-Sandro partnership until Sandro got injured.

Thought he generally did a good job in the 12/13 season, but it all fell apart in the 14/15 season when he wasn't as flexible tactically. He obviously has his flaws, but I never got why he got so much crap.

Hoops · Mar 21, 2017

whitesocks said:
He introduced the high line which we still have today.
It is less suicidal now, but that is partly because we have a manager who knows how to implement it properly.

He introduced the idea of the CBs splitting and the defensive midfielder slotting in between them. It was hopeless and usually the ball would just go back to the goalie to punt it. But last season with Dier dropping back we passed our way out of any press and now we usually play 3 at the back which is closely related.

He introduced the 1 striker plus 1 backup idea. Redknapp used to have a bench full of seasoned strikers and kept throwing them on until we scored. AVB was happy with Adebayor and the then unknown Kane. Today we have Kane and Janssen, and no-one seems to mind too much when we play with no strikers.

Having just 1 striker in the box numbered the days of our wingers - there was no longer any point flying down the wing and crossing. The club had a long tradition of exciting wing play, but if they couldn't score, they were now surplus.
Today nearly all width is provided by the full backs.

(Also he did away with the long tradition of having an ex-player as an assistant. There may have been other innovations behind the scenes.)

He may have been bad at implementing the ideas and I'm not sure he understood them at all, but like it or not, they are how the modern game is often played today.

Good tactics that IMO

whitesocks · Mar 21, 2017

ItsBoris said:
It's not like he introduced these ideas and then Poch picked up on them and improved them. Poch was already doing this at Southampton while AVB was here.

I just think there is a reasonable case to say MP would have had a harder time changing the way we play if AVB hadn't already introduced the club to many of the ideas already and culled some of the players who were unlikely to adapt.
I'm trying to be generous here.

allpaths · Mar 21, 2017

simyid said:
well i never said that i enjoyed AVB's time especially but i was making the point that there were some good times under him, even if in his 2nd season we were atrocious. i can do the same thing with Poch, have you enjoyed his time here? well did you enjoy getting battered by man city 4-1? or chelsea 3-0? or newcastle doing the double over us while getting relegated? or liverpool beating us 3-0 at home? or getting battered 3-0 by stoke? yet i can acknowledge Poch has done a great job and i am enjoying what he is doing, so it is not as simple as you put it.

Just a personal opinion but I never felt we were going to accomplish anything under avb, which just compounded everything. Poch has changed this club for the best and it's been evident ever since the post stoke loss and we haven't looked back.

scat1620 · Mar 21, 2017

whitesocks said:
I just think there is a reasonable case to say MP would have had a harder time changing the way we play if AVB hadn't already introduced the club to many of the ideas already and culled some of the players who were unlikely to adapt.
I'm trying to be generous here.

You're succeeding.

C0YS · Mar 21, 2017

whitesocks said:
I just think there is a reasonable case to say MP would have had a harder time changing the way we play if AVB hadn't already introduced the club to many of the ideas already and culled some of the players who were unlikely to adapt.
I'm trying to be generous here.

He did have a hard time changing the way we play, a whole season in fact. and a lot of that I think were from bad habits picked up under AVB.

AVB wasn't a terrible manager, but he was dull.

Can we also nip two myths in the bud.

He didn't make our defense better. In 2011-12, with that famous CB paring of Kaboul and Gallas we coincided 41 goals.
In fact In the whole harry Redknapp era (including 8 games under Ramos)the stats read.

2008-2009 - 43 goals con. (finished 8th)
2009-2010 - 41
2010-2011 - 46
2011-2012 - 41

Under AVB

2012-2013 - 46
2013-2014 - 22 in 16 games (projected total under AVB, 52)

So in other words, AVB's defense was equal to the worst season under Redknapp in his first season, and was seemingly getting worse. Not exactly a better defense.

Secondly, that losing VDV was a mitigating circumstance.

AVB didn't really fancy him. I quote;

"It was private things, but also when what's his name [Andre Villas-Boas] came he said to me 'you're not my number one' and I had played two years, like, unbelievable, so for me it was really strange that he said that to me. So then I said, well, it's better to leave and that is what happened.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/rafael-van-der-vaart-exclusive-6113007

Shadydan · Mar 21, 2017

C0YS said:
Secondly, that losing VDV was a mitigating circumstance.

AVB didn't really fancy him. I quote;

"It was private things, but also when what's his name [Andre Villas-Boas] came he said to me 'you're not my number one' and I had played two years, like, unbelievable, so for me it was really strange that he said that to me. So then I said, well, it's better to leave and that is what happened.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/rafael-van-der-vaart-exclusive-6113007

What's his name lol

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